Feeding mice with fur mites???

[Dog Shrink]

So this is just speculation on my part but the more reading I do the more I'm convinced my son's mouse colony has fur mites. Thankfully Loki has been on a feeding strike and hasn't eaten any of these possibly infected mice but what could happen to him from being exposed to this? I know that most parasites can't cross the warm blooded/cold blooded barrier but I don't know about fur mites... What should I do to make sure Loki doesn't get infected, or how to I check him to make sure he hasn't been infected? What do I look for? I haven't seen any little odd black spots or anything like that on him that would give me a clue he might have mites but now I'm all kinds of freaked out and seriously pissed at the shop where I got these mice. We actually swapped out most of Brey's successful colony in exchange for these white mice as his previous colony was mostly brindle and panda colored and it seemed Loki had lost interest in the darker mice. I need some ammo so that when I call them tommorow I can let them know just how much they screwed up by selling me tainted mice.

 

[robin]

reptile mites and fur mites are different. while i do not know what would happen if you fed them to your snake, i personally wouldnt do it. treat your mouse colony i am sure there are some healthy ways to do it. i will ask on some other boards and hopefully some others will post as well.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Thank you for the reply Robin, I appreciate it. Just to clarify I had no intentions of feeding the mice to Loki but he had been exposed to 1 from the colony that had been killed for him to eat but he refused. This was before I suspected mites. Brey planned on whacking the rest of the colony tomorrow (all 4 that are left) and just tossing them. They look horrid. All skinny and horrid fur. I will not let him feed them to Loki.

The treatment from what I've been reading (and suspected from my knowledge of rabbits ) is ivermectin, and I found a site that gives doses too but again what would the secondary toxicity be to Loki eating a mouse that had been treated with that? It's pretty harsh stuff. Imo the benefits don't outweight the risks as far as I can see but I would greatly appreciate you seeing if you could find out any more on the matter as I'm now worried that the gerbil that we had living in the cage next to the mouse colony (all in glass tanks with screen lids) could have contracted the mites altho she's not showing any signs and Brey practice excellent husbandry when caring for his rodent colonies washing hands and not cross contaminating etc. We had intended to switch from mice to gerbils for Loki since he is such a picky eater but after talking to Laney about that I'm not sure that we will pursue that route either. We are at a bit of an impass on what to do. I'm actually kinda glad he's on his winter hunger strike right now so it gives a bit of a chance to figure out which direction to go.

 

[M_surinamensis]

By themselves, rodent mites or fleas won't do anything at all to your snake if you use the potentially infested mice as feeders. They won't jump species and start feeding off your snake, they'll just get swallowed and digested along with the rodent, or fall off and end up starving to death when denied a mammalian host species.

However... external parasites are sometimes a transmission vector for internal parasites and infectious agents. Their presence is an indication that there is a slightly higher likelihood of the prey animals also being carriers for diseases which the reptiles could be infected by.

Additionally, if it gets bad enough, the mouse colony will stop breeding and a number of aberrant behaviors can develop within the colony. Plus rodent mites ARE inclined to feed on other mammals far more readily than they are on reptiles if there's cross-exposure. Other mammals like dogs, rabbits and your family.

So you definitely want to get rid of the problem.

Only thing is... most of the treatment options to eliminate the mites on the mice will cause the mice to be (at least temporarily) toxic to the snake. The external use of insecticides (permethrin is most common) is reasonably safe, but the direct ingestion of them will usually cause acute poisoning. So whatever spray, powder, dust, drops, strips or substrate changes you use to get the rodent racks cleaned up will pretty well make the mice unsuitable for use as feeders for at least a month-month and a half, minimum. You'd want a couple weeks post-treatment to ensure that all residual traces of the chemicals used have been worked out of and off of the mice.

Edit: ivermectin is a common treatment and preventative, injected or oral doses for the rodents. It is toxic to reptiles and can potentially kill them if they consume a rodent that has been heavily dosed. The most common mites present on rodents are the same species of mite responsible for mange in dogs... so cross-contamination to other mammal pets is quite possible. Something to keep an eye on, no doubt. If you do euthanize the remaining mice, freeze the corpses, freeze or discard all the bedding and clean in and around their enclosures thoroughly to kill off any mites which were not physically on the mice as they were destroyed.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Seamus, what about Selamectin, the active ingredient in Revolution for dogs and cats? The reason I ask is, I have hedgehogs, and the latest information for mite treatment points to Revolution being much more effective than Ivermectin in stopping the mite life cycle in that species.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Thank you Seamus. Apparently it HAS gotten that bad because we kept 2 original females from the successful colony and the one that use to breed like a pig has only had 1 litter since we introduced the new white mice and at that all the babies died. Now I'm worried for my dogs as the mouse colony and the dog room (where all the dogs eat and 1 of them sleeps in there at night) is one in the same. The dogs have been scratching lately but I had found fleas on 2 of the 5 when run thru with a flea comb so all were recently dosed with capstar and flea bathed, the house sprayed and all bedding washed. Typical flea DTox.

So since my boy has practiced good husbandry with washing up between caring for the mice and the gerbil, and he usually is in short sleeves and doesn't really handle the mice but basically chucks food in their dish and fills the water bottle should I need to worry for the gerbil as well? I don't see her scratch and have moved her tank away from the mouse colony. It really irritates the Snot outta me that this happened. In all the years I've been getting mice at this place this was quite a surprise. They usually pride themselves on good feeders and I have actually sold a lot of Brey's colony back to them. Geeze can you imagine if this got into my rabbitry? It would be an ungodly mess esp with my first show on the 19th of march... uuugh...

I will have Brey take the mice outside to whack them so that there is no threat of contamination in the house where all the fur bearing creatures are. What would you suggest DToxing the tank with and should I let it soak or just use the cleaning agent and be done with it?

 

[M_surinamensis]

Seamus, what about Selamectin, the active ingredient in Revolution for dogs and cats? The reason I ask is, I have hedgehogs, and the latest information for mite treatment points to Revolution being much more effective than Ivermectin in stopping the mite life cycle in that species.

I have absolutely no idea. I tried looking it up and got some information on its method of action pretty readily, but I could find absolutely no information anywhere about its effects on reptiles and I am unwilling to hazard a prediction based on what I could find.

Consequentially, I personally wouldn't let it anywhere near a reptile unless given the go-ahead by a veterinarian I trusted. Just one of those things where I tend to err on the side of caution if presented with things I don't know on the subject of a drug reaction.

Now I'm worried for my dogs as the mouse colony and the dog room (where all the dogs eat and 1 of them sleeps in there at night) is one in the same.

There are a few species of mites that can be found on rodents and a few that are commonly found on dogs, there's some overlap between the groups, including the two species of mites that are responsible for the common forms of mange. BUT! As you probably know, demodicosis mites are pretty much constantly present on dogs anyway and only cause the hair loss and irritation when the dog is immune compromised (from stress, or diet, or other disease agents). Sarcoptic mange is the nasty stuff, though if you're seeing acute hairlessness, crusty or scabby patches and an aggressive spread on the mice, it's probably not a bad idea to take a sample to a vet for scraping and analysis. If it is sarcoptic mites then you're much better off identifying, treating and takeing additional preventative steps against cross-contamination early rather than late.

So since my boy has practiced good husbandry with washing up between caring for the mice and the gerbil, and he usually is in short sleeves and doesn't really handle the mice but basically chucks food in their dish and fills the water bottle should I need to worry for the gerbil as well?

Eh... definitely getting into those areas where I don't feel comfortable issuing an opinion. It's basically a judgment call, if you look at the mice and suspect it might be the more aggressive and virulent kind of mite infestation, then I'd at least take one of the mice to a vet for testing. There can be a lot of potential underlying causes for a given set of visual symptoms and confirmation of a cause might dramatically change the subsequent steps that should be taken. People's descriptions can be so subjective, so different based on their own experiences and their own perception that I really don't feel it is appropriate for me to suggest anything other than that; if it's worrying you, have it checked out, especially with the mix of animals you have. Best case scenario, it turns out to be nothing dangerous and you waste thirty five bucks at the vet to confirm good things. Worst case scenario, it was something with a lot of negative potential and you managed to catch it early and keep it controlled.

What would you suggest DToxing the tank with and should I let it soak or just use the cleaning agent and be done with it?

Just the usual sort of disinfection that you'd do when breaking down a quarantine enclosure, to make sure that everything's set whenever you try to re-establish a colony. I'd give any tools, cage decor and the area near where the enclosures containing the affected mice were similar treatment as a precaution.