Genetics of a Breeding Colony

[Ziggurat]

I don't know if this will work or not, which is why I want to ask the gecko world at large.

Would a Mack Snow stud male from Ember Gecko, a Tangerine female from Ohio Gecko, and a Halloween Mask x Bold Stripe female be alright? Or should I switch and get a Mack Snow from Ohio Gecko, and a Tangerine from Ember Gecko? I don't want a genetic disaster on my hands.

OhioGecko, feel free to post your opinion if you're not to busy!

 

[fuzzylogix]

i'm not sure what you mean by "genetic disaster"....

if you are talking about issues with inbreeding, it's a non issue with leopard geckos. you can breed related leos with no problems

 

[lillith]

Technically you can, but I personally would not linebreed more than 3-5 generations total without an infusion of new blood from someone else's line.

If you are worried about morphs and compatibility vs. non-compatibility, spend some time with the calculators and at http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com .

Also read the sticky "Muddy Waters" at the top of this section.

I think what you're getting at is: if the lines at the two breeders are closely related, where they got their original geckos from, yes? That is better addressed in a PM to each of them than out here on the forum.

Almost of the leos in the United States are related with the exception of a few "wild-caught" type bloodlines that people have still. This is because you can no longer directly import WC leos into the United States. Some European States can, which is part of why the Hamm show is so big, U.S. breeders can pickup new blood and crosses. (And, well, the beer I s'pose. I like the beer in Germany, anyhow. When I finally get to do Hamm it will be a perfect year.)

I personally am aiming for a degree-of-separation approach; I have my basic animals, but will rotate out certain breeders over time and rotate new ones in.

Sorry for blathering on, I hope it helps a little, though.

 

[Ziggurat]

...I am so stupid. I keep forgetting that with geckos line breeding isn't an issue.

 

[lillith]

I dunno, at least you asked. Thumbs up in my book. :main_thumbsup:

 

[OhioGecko]

I don't know if this will work or not, which is why I want to ask the gecko world at large.

Would a Mack Snow stud male from Ember Gecko, a Tangerine female from Ohio Gecko, and a Halloween Mask x Bold Stripe female be alright? Or should I switch and get a Mack Snow from Ohio Gecko, and a Tangerine from Ember Gecko? I don't want a genetic disaster on my hands.

OhioGecko, feel free to post your opinion if you're not to busy!

I would personally sit down and figure out what I want my end result to be. Then I would setup my breeding colonies accordingly. I do think that a MS (Mack Snow) to a Tang and a HMxBS female will get you into two good projects. I would out cross any projects after 3 generations to prevent any deformities or unwanted characteristics such as short tails, short bodies, short legs and etc.

 

[Ziggurat]

Introduce fresh blood in 3 generations you mean Thad?

 

[Taquiq]

Yeah, you should cross a non related leo after 3 generations, Otherwise you may get some genetic defects.

 

[OhioGecko]

Yeah, you should cross a non related leo after 3 generations, Otherwise you may get some genetic defects.

:main_thumbsup:

 

[Ziggurat]

*nods* Hence the reason I'm keeping records.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Yeah, you should cross a non related leo after 3 generations, Otherwise you may get some genetic defects.

I have made a noise. It was mostly consonants, produced through my nose. It was a very odd noise. "Nrughnr." I went. I have decided it means "the feeling of agreeing with what someone is saying while feeling this itchy need to simultaneously disagree with why they are saying it, hoping that by bringing it up it won't be misconstrued by anyone who reads it."

Inbreeding doesn't create genetic defects.

What inbreeding does is constantly reinforce everything that was present in the originally selected genomes of the source animals. If they are completely and totally genetic defect free, if they have no genetic information on any level that could possibly manifest as a defect, then inbreeding could be continued indefinitely with no ill effects. If they have any genetic possibility for a defect, even if it were remote and unexpressed in the original animals, then the chances of reinforcing to the point where it is displayed is exponentially increased with each breeding back into the line.

Outcrossing doesn't actually make defects any less likely. It serves to mitigate the intense strengthening of any negative genetic traits which may have been present in the originally selected source animals, but it introduces new genetic material, with a new chance for something negative which was not originally present to be introduced and reproduced by the project. It's sort of a null effect, lowers the original danger while introducing a new one.

Outcrossing can be very useful for curbing qualitative traits that can be observed to be developing, or for introducing something that a project lacks. They can be used as a sort of preventative against the manifestation of negative qualities found in the initial line of stock but the choice to do so should really be made on a case by case, season by season, pairing by pairing basis. Each line being produced is going to represent a unique scenario which should be weighed on its individual conditions when deciding to inbreed or outcross each time a pairing is considered. The ratios inherently remove some element of analysis from it, encourage following directions rather than thinking. I'll encourage educated thought over rote compliance every time.

 

[Ziggurat]

I have made a noise. It was mostly consonants, produced through my nose. It was a very odd noise. "Nrughnr." I went. I have decided it means "the feeling of agreeing with what someone is saying while feeling this itchy need to simultaneously disagree with why they are saying it, hoping that by bringing it up it won't be misconstrued by anyone who reads it."

Inbreeding doesn't create genetic defects.

What inbreeding does is constantly reinforce everything that was present in the originally selected genomes of the source animals. If they are completely and totally genetic defect free, if they have no genetic information on any level that could possibly manifest as a defect, then inbreeding could be continued indefinitely with no ill effects. If they have any genetic possibility for a defect, even if it were remote and unexpressed in the original animals, then the chances of reinforcing to the point where it is displayed is exponentially increased with each breeding back into the line.

Outcrossing doesn't actually make defects any less likely. It serves to mitigate the intense strengthening of any negative genetic traits which may have been present in the originally selected source animals, but it introduces new genetic material, with a new chance for something negative which was not originally present to be introduced and reproduced by the project. It's sort of a null effect, lowers the original danger while introducing a new one.

Outcrossing can be very useful for curbing qualitative traits that can be observed to be developing, or for introducing something that a project lacks. They can be used as a sort of preventative against the manifestation of negative qualities found in the initial line of stock but the choice to do so should really be made on a case by case, season by season, pairing by pairing basis. Each line being produced is going to represent a unique scenario which should be weighed on its individual conditions when deciding to inbreed or outcross each time a pairing is considered. The ratios inherently remove some element of analysis from it, encourage following directions rather than thinking. I'll encourage educated thought over rote compliance every time.

Would you please give me the standard healthy weight, tail length, ect., then? If this sounds like a stupid question, remember how new I am. Also, since I don't know what the hatchlings of my pairings will look like, I'll provide pictures and post them on this site. Something I'd do anyway even if I was breeding a single morph.