Gutloading - Absolutely necessary or highly suggested?

[idmd]

Just a quick question. I'm currently feeding my Leo meal worms and gut loading with apple, carrot and some other assorted items. I'm dusting with Ca sans D3 every feeding and using vitamins twice a month and Ca with D3 twice a month.

My question is with this regiment how necessary is gutloading the meal worms? This is by far my least favorite thing to do and so naturally I'm wondering if it's really needed.

If the consensus is yes then I have no problem continuing. Is there any real data publish looking at the nutritional value of gutloaded vs non-gutloaded feed?

 

[Bellalee]

What you put in your mealworms is what you are feeding your geckos. Otherwise you are just feeding them a chitin shell with nothing in it.. So yes, gutloading is absolutly necessary.

 

[Chewbecca]

What you put in your mealworms is what you are feeding your geckos. Otherwise you are just feeding them a chitin shell with nothing in it.. So yes, gutloading is absolutly necessary.

hahahahaha!
You are still feeding a worm, but you aren't feeding a worm with a TON of good vitamins flowing through its system.

 

[SteveB]

Is there any real data publish looking at the nutritional value of gutloaded vs non-gutloaded feed?

Yes.

If no one has it referenced, I'll try to dig something up later on... but absolutely, there is published data.


Look, human beings eat burgers all day long and pop multivitamin pills. But we all know those humans are not at optimum health. There is no substitute for a good diet, and with insectivores, we can improve the diet by gutloading the insects.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Gutload!!!

 

[idmd]

What you put in your mealworms is what you are feeding your geckos. Otherwise you are just feeding them a chitin shell with nothing in it.. So yes, gutloading is absolutly necessary.

So how does the dusting with a multivitamin and calcium fit into all of this? If the feed is nutritionally deficient in nutrients and vitamins could that be made up with more dustings of multivitamins?

I'm not trying to be argumentative or prove a point - I'm just trying to delve into a more thorough understanding of my leo's needs. If anyone does have a reference I'd appreciate it.

 

[Bellalee]

Sorry I should of thought before I wrote.. and I can't edit it.

but here are some links I found...

http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm

And this is on veiled chameleons but makes sense...

http://www.veiled-chameleon.com/weblog/archives/000258.html


Here is from this page... http://www.jurassipet.com/Products/JurassiDiet_GL.html

Your prey items are only as good as what they consume. Competing products fail to maximize the nutritional value of prey items. For example, the Ca : P ratio should be no less than 1.2 : 1, and is ideally maintained from 2 : 1 up to 8 : 1 depending on the species; but competing gut loads contain at least one of the following poor calcium sources: corn, or soy. Corn has a Ca : P ratio of 1 : 33, and soy has a Ca : P ratio of 1 : 2.5. Furthermore, not only are corn and soy not beneficial, they are actually harmful to your animals. They contain oxalates and phytates, which bind to calcium, thus preventing the calcium from being utilized. JurassiDiet™ GutLoad distinguishes itself from the competitors by employing a calcium rich base, alfalfa. Alfalfa has a Ca : P ratio of 6 : 1.Contains no soy, which can impair calcium absorption.

There is also a bunch more information.. I know people have had great results from gutloading there insects with certain types of gutload.

 

[JordanAng420]

http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2008&Category=3866&PID=23994&O=Generic

This is written by a veterinarian...please read the entire article, it's very good, although you might want to scroll down & concentrate on the part about nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (MBD) in lizards...for some reason I keep thinking you are a doctor (?)...I might be confusing you with someone else though.

 

[JordanAng420]

Courtesey of VIN...

"Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism

Nutritional secondary hyperparathyroidism (NSHP) or metabolic bone disease is commonly seen in reptiles. It occurs when a low intake of calcium stimulates parathyroid hormone to mobilise calcium from the bone to maintain normal blood levels. This condition mainly affects juvenile lizards and chelonians but can occur in adults too. It is uncommon in snakes as they are fed a vertebrate diet rich in calcium. Juvenile and small snakes fed pinkies (neonatal mice) that have no mineralised skeleton can be affected.

Insectivores

Many owners seem to believe that insects live on thin air and never actually feed them. Basically if the prey is under nourished so will be the predator. Insects like mealworms and crickets have an inverse Ca ratio. This can be helped by two methods.

Gut loading--feed the crickets a high calcium food with a bit of fruit / vegetables for moisture (e.g., milk powder, porridge oats with a slice of apple). This should be supplemented with a calcium powder.

Dusting--prior to feeding, the crickets should be put in a plastic bag and lightly dusted with a good quality calcium powder.

Herbivores

Feed a wide variety of mixed leafy greens high in calcium like dandelions, romaine lettuce, and kale.

Common Causes

Diets low in calcium and high in phosphorus (e.g., crickets, skeletal muscle meat, day old chicks, pinkie mice).

Lack of Vitamin D3 (cholecalciferol) in the diet or lack of ultraviolet light. Vitamin D is produced by the action of ultraviolet light on skin and the crucial wavelengths are UVB 290-315 nm. The amount of UV needed will depend on the individual species--some nocturnal lizards like the leopard gecko can absorb Vitamin D very rapidly by exposing themselves to sun briefly at dawn and dusk.

General poor husbandry--production of Vitamin D is very slow at suboptimal temperatures, lack of exercise due to too small a vivarium, too rapid growth due to over feeding of juveniles.

Clinical Signs

Lizards often present with fractured limbs or hind limb paresis due to poor mineralisation of the bones. The limbs may appear swollen due to flabby muscle mistakenly giving the appearance of plumpness. The mandible can be swollen (rubber jaw) and there is general anorexia and lethargy. Severe cases get hypocalcaemic tetany and seizures. Poorly mineralized eggs, dystocia, cloacal prolapse are also commonly seen.

Juvenile chelonians are at high risk because of the high calcium requirements for their shell during growth. They present with anorexia and with a soft shell. Often the shell may appear deformed, asymmetric and too small for animal.

Diagnosis

This is made via the husbandry history (poor diet and lack of UV light), clinical signs and radiography.

Radiography

Generalised osteopenia of skeleton is particularly evident at extremities (digits and lateral vertebral processes of tail) where the bone assumes the same soft tissue opacity as surrounding tissues. Thin cortices of long bones with folding fractures may be seen. There is often evidence of past healed fracture and / or spinal deformities like scoliosis, lordosis etc.

Treatment

Many patients are anorexic and dehydrated and may need to be hospitalized for fluid therapy and assisted feeding. Oral calcium should be given or parenteral calcium (Ca gluconate 100 mg/kg sc) if there are muscle tremors or seizures. The owner must correct any underlying husbandry problems like subnormal temperatures and lack of ultraviolet light and dietary calcium. Access to unfiltered sunlight (i.e., not through a window) is important where possible. Gentle handling is required."

 

[Digby Rigby]

Gutloading as it should be done

Feeding a nutritious diet to your animals continually is what produces superior results, not just feeding a day or two before feeding off. Remember feeders are temporary pets. You get to play with them until its time for your reptiles to eat. Mealworms suck get silkworms and roaches among other things.

Digby Rigby [email protected]