Hainanensis and ??

[paulnj]

I know the rough number of imported caves over the last year and find it hard to believe that the island of Hainan is the only location of recent imports. Lets face it, collectors drop animals off and locations are not important to the buyers(exporter). Who's to say that a few lichtenfelderi didn't get mixed in.

BTW, you state that only one person has proven lichtenfelderi in the states, are your animals unproven then? Me and Eric are still working toward positive Lichtenfelderi ID's, but are fairly certain as to the ID of the animals I aquired from fresh import containers.

 

[geckomaster]

A couple of valid points to be sure. I should specify that the original source of proven lichtenfelderi in the United States stem from Phil Tremper which if I remember correctly received his animals from Yuri K. Like with the Japanese species my understanding is that all lichtenfelderi in the trade come from Yuri's original animals. I purchased my lichtenfelderi from Phil Tremper and am looking to acquire animals that are unrelated so that I may breed them, but fear that will be quite some time, if ever. From personal correspondence, and chats in the forums most breeders (in my opinion) feel that the animals currently coming in are hainanensis, but that doesn't rule out that there are a few lichtenfelderi coming through, or those with blood that is mixed with lichtenfelderi. To be fair I've been on both sides of this issue. You are absolutely correct on the collection/exportation issue. We are pretty much talking about men, women, and children with bags picking up animals which to go local markets and eventually make it here. That makes things confusing to be sure. I think the issue I'm having is that much of the conversation revolving around the imports is more speculative due to this chaotic collection process. That and there are many good breeders that are honest, intelligent people who are selling hainanensis as lichtenfelderi which doesn't help whatsoever. I myself experienced this and hold no ill will towards them understanding the turbulence over this issue at the moment. This thread alone proves this problem as one holds faith in the breeder that is backed up by another, and another questions this identification due to morphological traits in photos.