HELP! Heating!

[M_surinamensis]

I'm new at this so please.. you can be a little more gentle on me

... that was me being gentle. I think I'm going to step to one side on this one unless tagged in.

Although I'd just like to direct a little attention to the following for those who want to mollycoddle their way through this one:

I've had my leopard gecko Cleo for a few weeks now

And the heating hasn't arrived yet. You're on a clock when it comes to communicating the basics to this owner. This lizard has a definite expiration date considering what it is reported to have come from in order to get to the point where being left in an unheated enclosure for weeks on end is somehow considered an improvement. Good luck.

 

[Kelkiie]

I'd like to ask you a question, M_surinamensis, how does a leo act when they don't have sufficient heat?
Are they lethargic, do they not eat, will they stop going number 1+2 and just sleep all the time?
Cleo has never acted in these ways since I've had her under my care, but she was pretty sluggish before me, mostly from not being fed enough.

I have read somewhere on another website saying that leos do go into a hibernation mode when they don't have the heat they need, am I wrong or correct?
Since you seem to know everything. I'm just asking out of curiosity.

 

[lillith]

Did you guys miss the part about the LAMP for HEAT at the beginning?

She gets the point, she's made steps to obtain proper heating, no it wasn't at lightning speed, no it wasn't IDEAL, but she came to ask for help.

I understand the wanting to pound your head in over people who don't listen, but a lot of posters on this thread are making it difficult for someone to be receptive to what they're saying because of their tone.

I think she keeps responding back because she's now paranoid that she's this horrible person due to all of the "constructive" criticism, and has to *prove* that she's not. She's been put on defense, which impedes actual communication. I would probably act the same in her shoes if this was my first week on the forum and I got these kind of responses. I would be totally freaked out. Think about it for a minute.

How about we quit jumping down her throat and let her breathe, we can get an update on her gecko later, and either it will get healthier or it won't and then everyone can decide what that means for themselves.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I'd like to ask you a question, M_surinamensis, how does a leo act when they don't have sufficient heat?

That depends a great deal on how far from correct the temperatures are and in which direction.

Fifteen to twenty degrees below the ideal ranges, you will generally see-

Are they lethargic, do they not eat, will they stop going number 1+2 and just sleep all the time?

More than twenty degrees below it, the signs are similar but more severe.

At, for example, ten degrees below what it should be, behavior can appear close to normal, but physiologically the animal is on a slow decline. They'll eat and defecate but they won't digest the available nutrients or synthesize the necessary vitamins required to replicate cells. Eventually this catches up with them in the form of health issues if it is not corrected. Unfortunately by the time easily noticeable symptoms manifest it's often too late.

Too hot by ten degrees tends to have behavioral effects. Lots and lots of activity, climbing or digging in search of an escape, yawning and gaping are much more frequent. The metabolism is increased pretty dramatically, so food intake and feces production tends to go up, but most of the nutrients consumed are also utilized faster than they are taken in, as once again, cell death from improper environmental conditions is sped up, though for different reasons this time, wear and use mostly. Sometimes neurological conditions can manifest at this temperature, but that is comparatively rare. Unless of course they are aestivating, which isn't common but also isn't unheard of for them and requires a very specific set of triggers to bring about.

Too hot by twenty degrees, which is when the manifestation of immediate neurological symptoms is often apparent and death is generally pretty quick. Few days at most, without sucrease.

All of which makes the assumption that the temperature issues are the only thing that may be wrong. They are behaviors looked at when a single variable is in play. Since multiple variables are constantly at work, the manifestation of specific behaviors may or may not happen as there can potentially be other factors working at cross-purposes and overriding the display of some signs and symptoms. Too hot and harboring a parasite infection or too cold but with a poor thermal gradient can behave differently than any individual condition by itself.

So depending on how too hot or how too cold, overt symptoms that can be easily identified can vary. They cannot be relied on as definite indicators. This is why we use thermometers, checking the temperatures regularly even when everything appears fine.

Cleo has never acted in these ways since I've had her under my care

You're not really in a position to judge how she's acting or not acting. You simply don't have the experience to judge the nuances and subtleties of the behavior patterns displayed by the species.

I'm pretty interested in the subject of reptile behavior, I've been keeping reptiles a pretty long time and (admittedly years ago) I've been responsible for the health and maintenance of a few hundred leopard geckos... I wouldn't trust my own judgment if it came down to solely using behavioral cues to accurately identify the quality of the environment. In conjunction with thermometers and hygrometers, as a supplement to a temp gun, as another check mark on a long list of failsafes, backups and forethought, yeah, it's worthwhile. By itself, alone? Too dangerous and untrustworthy. Too subjective for me, so it's definitely too subjective for... most. I dunno, maybe Kelli and Marcia or someone like Tremper could use it as a sole indicator, maybe they can read the differences to that fine a degree. And then again, maybe not; I'm pretty sure they check it using tools regardless.

I have read somewhere on another website saying that leos do go into a hibernation mode when they don't have the heat they need, am I wrong or correct?

Completely wrong.

First of all, no reptiles hibernate. Some brumate in response to cold temperatures, this is a very different process metabolically.

Even if you want to call that semantics (it's not), leopard geckos don't do either of them. Brumation is a safe slowing of the metabolism and a period of torpor, in species which have evolved to do so. Leopard geckos are not among those species, they do not come from an area where it is a necessary adaptation. Cold weather can slow them and alter their metabolic rate and periods of activity but not generally to the point of brumation, although pure subspecific strains from higher elevation areas are slightly more likely. They will sometimes (rarely) aestivate when conditions dictate it.

The thing about periods of healthy dormancy though; they are a specific metabolic alteration that requires prep time. The photoperiod gets successively shorter as the temperature drops and food becomes less readily available and the barometric pressure, humidity and storm activity of winter become more evident over time. It's a state that is prompted by a gradual change associated with seasonal conditions, when the species experiences it at all. It is not the same as an abrupt lack of a necessary heating element.

Since you seem to know everything. I'm just asking out of curiosity.

You're asking because you thought you'd trip me up by being a smartass. I respect a smartass a lot more than a dumbass, but games like this aren't going to get you any closer to taking care of this lizard the right way.

So I'll just reiterate; you need to find some way of providing this animal with what it needs immediately if you want to keep it healthy and alive. If you can't do that, then you should find someone who can and is willing. Your temporary measures on the heating are just perplexing. Has it seen a veterinarian yet for a checkup and fecal exam? Do you have adequate thermometers and thermostats in place for your temporary heating elements? Have you read anything except websites looking for information?

Edit: Lillith, you're not wrong, but what would you suggest when addressed directly? Beyond that, those who brought up the finances -> care subject aren't wrong. It's a subject that comes up from time to time and it always makes me feel lousy to point it out, but there is a sort of minimum buy-in to keep a pet. Those who can't, for whatever reason, shouldn't try, for the sake of the animal.

 

[lillith]

Edit: Lillith, you're not wrong, but what would you suggest when addressed directly? Beyond that, those who brought up the finances -> care subject aren't wrong. It's a subject that comes up from time to time and it always makes me feel lousy to point it out, but there is a sort of minimum buy-in to keep a pet. Those who can't, for whatever reason, shouldn't try, for the sake of the animal.

My comment was mostly not directed at you. I know you come on strong sometimes, but you always have very good information to back up your stances, as you've just shown us. Thank you. =)

My concern was that everyone was jumping on the "bad owner!" bandwagon very quickly and I wanted everyone to stop escalating non-communicative ways of getting information to the new kid on the forums.

 

[Kelkiie]

I've been ignoring the post since yesterday, so an update, everything is set up, current temperature is 94.3 heat pad is on low, ambient temp is about 78, but there's about 5 layers of paper towel down and to the touch it's perfectly warm. She just ate about 6 crickets, there's 3 still sitting around on the top of the tank.
I'm soon going to give her a soak in warm water to help with her shed, she's been getting lighter and lighter everyday, and I'm excited for her first shed since it's been a few months.



Here's some more pictures of her from when I first got her,

 

[im faster]

Good to hear. you will really see her condition improve now.

 

[Kelkiie]

Thank you, I'm really looking forward to seeing her at her full potential.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Great Thanks for the update Kelsey

 

[roger]

Good Job.Its good to see hes coming along.The most important thing for me is too see him get big and healthy and from what I can see he is on the way!

 

[Kelkiie]

Another great update!
Cleo shed lastnight around midnight, I'm so proud of her, she had no left over skin on any of her feet, they peeled like gloves.

I got a quick picture + one of her taking a soak.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

#1 Jeez mom, can't a girl change clothes in privacy???

#2 Weeeeee I can swim!!!

Adorable pix She looks great!

 

[Kelkiie]

Thanks! I love her like crazy.

I'm definitely seeing an improvement, especially in her eating, she jumps at every cricket she sees, she even jumped at one as she was climbing the wall to get to some of them. She's quicker than ever.

 

[marinemp1978]

To all you Hippocrates hammering on this kid for asking for help:

Dont get me wrong I love my geckos but if you think about it keeping all animals inside a small cage for your own amusement is a little messed up also. I believe he said in the first post his intentions were to rescue his gecko. Not saying dont tell him what he is doing wrong but to practically write a novel on this poor chumps mistakes? Grow up please!

 

[lillith]

To all you Hippocrates hammering on this kid for asking for help:

Dont get me wrong I love my geckos but if you think about it keeping all animals inside a small cage for your own amusement is a little messed up also. I believe he said in the first post his intentions were to rescue his gecko. Not saying dont tell him what he is doing wrong but to practically write a novel on this poor chumps mistakes? Grow up please!

Be sure to read all the posts to the last page before you freak out.
All's well that ends well with Cleo, the OP has done an awesome job with her.

p.s. maybe there is something to the theory of thread necromancy due to being Halloween season. oi.