help, my gecko is floppy!

[KaprikaAZ]

my male 2yr old raptor is acting strange

he is usualy really "stiff" when held, and gets fussy and fights to be let down. hes kept on paper towel regularly changed, in a reptile rack system. temps are kept appropriately with heat tape/tem controler combo. he gets food and water change appropriately and nobody else handles him but me.

he seems disoriented and floppy. like, hes alert and awake but he just lolled around in my hand. and seemed "soft" rather than usualy being stiff. he rolled around over on his back in my hand and seemed unable to right himself.
the only time ive ever seen him like that was one time a few months ago when he leaped off my hand and hit the floor. he was stunned and acted similarly for a hour or so. he got better since

i just now held him and this is NOT normal for him. his diet is mealworms and he drinks regularly too. is this impaction?? he walks okay when i took him out, like his legs arent paralyzed. but this "floppyness" made my heart jump.

i dont think it could be impaction because there just really isnt anything in there other than mealworms for him to impact ON. and hes been pooping normaly just fine.
h

 

[tb144050]

You should fill out the Health & Medications questionaire (copy and paste it) for the most accurate results, especially the detailed part about supplements.

He sounds weak and "somewhat lucid" (since he can walk), but he doesn't sound irritated (as if he was in pain of some sort)...so it might be neurological or a supplement-deficiency?? ........just thinking outloud...

Google "enigma syndrome" (and watch a couple of youtube videos) to see how his behavior compares to the disoriented behavior associated with enigma syndrome.

(I know you didn't say he was an enigma, but if you see a video with similar behavior, please link to it? ......or post your own pics/video?)

I am definitely not a vet but please provide the questionaire info for the experienced members to evaluate.

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edit: also check the surface temp on his warmside. Was he cool/colder to the touch than usual? You never know when your UTH is gonna go out, but if they get colder, it slows them down...and I see the current temp is 42F in Annapolis, MD....so if his UTH went out, his surface temp will = drafty room temp (possibly mid-60's, depending on distance from a heat vent or window draft).

 

[KaprikaAZ]

About your leo:
- Sex male
- Age & Weight almost 3 years old. weight unknown, but hes good and bulky and with a fat tail
- How long have you owned your leo. almost a year
- Where was he/she obtained (ex. Pet store, breeder, wild caught, friend) bought from a breeder

A) Health/History
- How often do you handle your leo - almost weekly
- Is your leo acting any different today? If so how does he/she normally act which differs from now. - usualy is fussy when handled and likes to roam. will allow handling but preffers to let roam. today though he felt floppy and lolled around in my hand almost limp like. has weak motor functions and can move all 4 legs. just seemed sorta limp like
- Has he/she had any problems in the past, if so please describe. - a month after i got him, he had eaten bad crickets and got sick, but recovered after a 2 week medical regimine
B) Fecals
- Describe (look any different than normal) normal
- When was the last time he/she went a day or two ago
C) Problem
- Please briefly describe the problem and how long it has been going on

floppy
"soft" when he is usualy stiff and wriggly when handled
slow and seeming stunned almost if not semi weak

Housing:
A) Enclosure
- Size - medium i guess?
- Type (ex. glass tank) - plastic reptile tack drawer
- Type of substrate - paper towel
- Hides, how many, what kind - 1 tupperware with dampened paper towel
B) Heating
- Heat source - flexiiwat tape
- Cage temps (hot side, cool side) 86/72
- Method of regulating heat source - temp control device
- What are you using to measure your temps - sensor attached to the temp control
- Do you have any lights (describe) - no
C) Cage mates
- How many (males, females) none
- Describe health, or previous problems - was normal a few days ago

Describe Diet:
A) Typical diet
- What you're feeding (how often, how much) mealworms / as many as he wants, and i toss our the dead ones
- How are you feeding (hand fed, left in dish, ect) dish
B) Supplements (describe how often)
- What vitamin/minerals are you using (list brands) zoo med repti calcium with D3
- What are you gut loading food with - potatoes/bread/oatmeal

 

[tb144050]

1) If there is only one hide available and it is moist, that means he probably spends alot of time in a moist hide. Too much time in a high-humidity area can cause respiratory infections.

2) You "throw out the dead mealworms"? Does this mean that they stay in the dish long enough to starve? If so, they lose their nutritional value once their little mealie-bodies have consumed their own stomach contents.

3) For supplements, you only listed "zoo med repti calcium with D3". If this is correct you may be overdosing him on D3 (which has no immediate effects...effects show up longterm) and/or missing your Leo's Multivitamin (which is required in addition to moderate calcium+d3 & often calcium-d3).

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^^^ These are just some thoughts. Please clarify if I misunderstand any answers you provided.

Note: There is also a current post from a member who mysteriously had his three 1yr-old Leo's pass away within 1month of each other. I am not sure what the cause is, but it makes me consider conspiracy theories (tainted mealworms or supplements leaving the factory??).

 

[KaprikaAZ]

his drawer is dry, its just the tupperware hide thats dampened, so he can be dry or humid.

how often would you say i aught to throw out the mealworms then?

for a long time ive been a little lost on what sort of supplimentation i should be giving because i find so many mixed messages online. nobody can seem to unanimously agree on if D3is bad or not, and ive not been tottaly sure what other vitamins they needed other than the obvious calcium
-edit-
i just online purchased a jar of the calcium WITHOUT the D3. what else should i get, link me

and do you know if i can correct all these things and have him bounce back? or have i backed myself up into a obligatory vet visit

 

[tb144050]

and do you know if i can correct all these things and have him bounce back? or have i backed myself up into a obligatory vet visit

I'm not entirely sure I have diagnosed his "floppiness". Would you say he is "lethargic"? The other post I mentioned is:
http://geckoforums.net/f130-health-medications/99367.htm

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1) But to be dry, he has to be "exposed" (out in the open). With only a moist hide, he is going to spend all of his "hide from the world time" inside a humid area. Most caresheets and herpers agree on: "1 cool hide, 1 warm hide, and 1 moist hide".
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2) There are so many different "supplement schedules" on the internet because there are so many available products to mix n' match....and of course, the supplement schedule has to be based on an appropriate feed schedule. If you leave mealies in a bowl, they lose their light-dusting fairly quickly....I would recommend to replace mealies every-other-day.

You want a Multivitamin (per directions/frequency on bottle) and Calcium+D3 in moderation, and Calcium-d3 on all the other "regular" feedings. I feed crickets and dust:

Monday: Multivitamin Monday!! (with calcium+d3 mixed in, per MV directions).
Tues: -
Wed: -
Thur: -
Fri: Calcium+d3
Sat: -
Sun: -

^^^^^Note the 2 very special, limited feedings: MV+D3 and D3. If I feed on ANY other day of the week, I dust with Calcium-D3 (without).
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3) The "calcium+d3 overdose" is indeed highly debated. It sounds VERY logical, and it is a very simple measure to prevent the possibility of a D3 overdose. The effect of D3 overdose is shown in the longterm after it may possibly be too late. D3 is stored in fat, so when the Leo goes "off food" in the far future,...those stored fats (all filled with d3) start to get burned..... and I honestly don't know the symptoms. I haven't read that far into the subject. It's just too easy to "err on the safe side" and play it safe by moderating the D3 intake.
^^Source: http://geckoforums.net/f129-supplementation/55664.htm

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I would start with a Multivitamin and regular Cacium(without d3) this week, then use a moderated dusting schedule.

And if he is still letharthic tomorrow, I would definitely get him to a vet and then initiate extreme quarantine. I can't tell for sure what is going on with him but hopefully a vet can solve it.

 

[favrielle]

Most caresheets and herpers agree on: "1 cool hide, 1 warm hide, and 1 moist hide".

This is not entirely true. Yes, the caresheets usually agree on those hides, but they are often geared to the pet owner and a gecko in a tank enclosure. This gecko is in a rack, and assuming the sides are enclosed (as opposed to an AP economy-style rack with open sides) the entire tub also serves as a "hide". Some of my younger/smaller geckos have only one moist hide which is wetted about once a week unless a gecko is in shed. They often spend time outside their hides, too, lounging around on the warm or cool portion of the floor.


OP, if your temp is only at 86 on the hot-side surface, I'd try to bump that up. 88-90 would be much, much better.

And honestly, I'd be taking the geck into the vet no matter what. The floppiness doesn't sound like a home-remedy sort of situation, and if it *is* something easily treatable, it's better to get on top of it now, rather than later when it might be too late.

 

[KaprikaAZ]

went to the vet. and she reccomended the following

1) add a vitamine regimine on top of my current supplimentation
2) switch out food more frequently
3) add a wide variety of bugs like hornworms, butterworms, waxworms, reptiworms
4) switch to a non D3 calcium suppliment
and she took a X-ray and said he looked great aside from his pelvis seemed to be fady? she wasnt sure if it was just cause hes a meaty lil gecko, or if thats a problem. she sent it to a specialist.

i hope hes okay :c
*waits franticly for bugs to get in the mail

 

[tb144050]

dust:

Monday: Multivitamin Monday!! (with calcium+d3 mixed in, per MV directions).
Tues: -
Wed: -
Thur: -
Fri: Calcium+d3
Sat: -
Sun: -

^^^^^Note the 2 very special, limited feedings: MV+D3 and D3. If I feed on ANY other day of the week, I dust with Calcium-D3 (without).
----------------

3) The "calcium+d3 overdose" is indeed highly debated. It sounds VERY logical, and it is a very simple measure to prevent the possibility of a D3 overdose. The effect of D3 overdose is shown in the longterm after it may possibly be too late. D3 is stored in fat, so when the Leo goes "off food" in the far future,...those stored fats (all filled with d3) start to get burned..... and I honestly don't know the symptoms. I haven't read that far into the subject. It's just too easy to "err on the safe side" and play it safe by moderating the D3 intake.
^^Source: http://geckoforums.net/f129-supplementation/55664.htm

Ask your vet to confirm that you should still use D3 in moderation...just not constantly. If I recall correctly, D3 is what allows gecko's to process Calcium. So if you switch to something that has NO d3 in it, then you miiiiight be calcium deficient...(??)

 

[KaprikaAZ]

took him back again cause not seeing change and my gut instinct is this isnt working

turns out he had 2 broken ribs :/
and here everyone i knew was tellin me i was bein paranoid..
hes gonna be ok now. hes getting the meds n treatment he needs

 

[indyana]

Wow, so sorry to hear that! Glad he's getting appropriate medical attention.

Did you ever decide what to do for supplements? I personally love Repashy Calcium Plus because it has vitamins and calcium together, and you can dust every feeding without worrying about an overdose. Takes the guessing out of trying to figure out what days to do vitamins versus calcium...

I also keep a dish of pure calcium (no D3) in my geckos cage, although Repashy claims that you do not have to with their Calcium Plus supplement.

 

[Olympus]

Sorry to hear about your gecko, that sounds painful.

In addition to varying their diet I would also beef up your gutload as well, because what you're feeding your worms is very low in nutritional value. Great, fresh food ingredients are the following:

Best - These gutloading ingredients are best because they are highest in calcium, low in phosphorus, oxalates and goitrogens. They should be the primary components of your gutload:
mustard greens, turnip greens, dandelion leaves, collard greens, escarole lettuce, papaya, watercress and alfalfa.

Good - These gutloading ingredients are good because they are moderately high in calcium and other vitamins/minerals. They should be used in addition to those from the previous category:
sweet potato, carrots, oranges, mango, butternut squash, kale, apples, beet greens, blackberries, bok choy and green beans.

These fresh fruits and vegetables can be combined with dry gutload mixes or home made mixes for optimal well-rounded nutrition. Dry ingredients can include:
bee pollen, organic non-salted sunflower seeds, spirulina, dried seaweed, flax seed and organic non-salted almonds.

​

As far as the D3 goes, I see there is a bit of doubt about what it does. The purpose of vitamin D is to maintain normal, balanced blood levels of calcium and phosphorus in the body, and plays an important role in the absorption of calcium into the bones, helping them become stronger. It also plays an important part in maintaining immune system health. There are risks associated with too much of this vitamin, which is why it is not recommended to supplement too heavily with this vitamin via diet. This vitamin is fat soluble, which means it builds up in fat over time. Too much of it will start affecting the nerves and muscles, and more severe toxicity will start to affect calcium levels; calcium will be highly elevated in soft tissues, such as muscles and kidneys, and begin to actually calcify these tissues, while debilitating the bones. Vitamin D overdose can mimic the symptoms of MBD.

I use Repashy Calcium Plus with my geckos, but not daily like recommended. I use it maybe 2-3 times a month, at most, and use plain calcium the other days. Calcium Plus still has a pretty high level of D3 compared to other brands so a few times a week is more than enough, in my personal opinion.