Help stop the slaughter of horses

[StinaKSU]

What sources are you using for your research?.... As far as the procedures you mentioned....how humane they are depends a LOT on who you talk to. Humane is not a matter of black and white....there is a lot of grey in between. As far as de-beaking specifically....chickens are cannibalistic...they beat the crap out of eachother if they can...debeaking keeps then from trying to kill eachother, its a matter of welfare...they can still eat and drink...its more humane than most "free range" farms where the chickens kill and beat up on eachother...at least in my opinion

As far as horses specifically go....again they aren't being raised for slaughter, so the issues of other livestock actually raised for it do not come into play for horses. Many of them do live normal lives...others are unwanted horses that have been abused and neglected and would otherwise continue to be abused and neglected. The vast majority of horses going to slaughter would otherwise be abused and neglected (as I mentioned) or be euthanized anyway... which brings up another issue...the large number of carcasses that will have to be disposed of in some way should the bills pass into law...there's no plan on what to do with them.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

How on earth can you consider de-beaking humane? No anesthetic is used... but that isn't the issue here to we can save all that.

I personally had not done research on horse slaughtering so I didn't know if they were raised for slaughter. I just said if that is how you just described for horses, then I have nothing against it. I guess I shouldn't say nothing, because humans (at least Americans) are so money hungry that the more successful horse slaughtering is, the more they may be raised for slaughtering in the future. That's just my opinion, you don't have to agree, obviously.

 

[BluGnat]

As I understand it, a horse killed for slaughter never knows what hits it... death is instantaneous. Therefore, the only thing that people are having problems with here is the fact that the horses are eaten after being killed. But the horse is not going to care. Again, I simply think that this is a waste of quality meat that could be used for human nutrition.

Also, from what I understand, a big part of the problem and what some groups are trying to improve is not the slaughter itself - but the treatment/conditions of the horses during the transporation to slaughter.

 

[OSUgecko]

"Also, from what I understand, a big part of the problem and what some groups are trying to improve is not the slaughter itself - but the treatment/conditions of the horses during the transporation to slaughter."

Don't have a problem with that. I am all for humane treatment of animals, and I am sure that there are some conditions that need improvement. However, I don't think that Congress should make the decision to stop the whole industry, without offering any other alternatives, just on the basis that some animals are not being properly cared for. (They could make the same argument with pets, y'know).

"I guess I shouldn't say nothing, because humans (at least Americans) are so money hungry that the more successful horse slaughtering is, the more they may be raised for slaughtering in the future."

The problem with that logic is that it's really not profitable to raise horses specifically for slaughter in the US. There's not enough market for horse meat to necessitate the additional slaughter of horses. Now, the horses slaughtered now are shipped overseas/eaten by ethnic groups and the meat IS used. But most other people aren't interested in buying the meat, so it just wouldn't make economical sense for people to start a horse feedlot business... at least in this country. You can make a LOT more money breeding horses for racing, showing, etc.

"...personally had not done research on horse slaughtering..."

Just a suggestion, you might want to do a little bit more research before you start making accusations like you have been. I'm getting a degree in animal science husbandry, and there's a lot more to the industry than you're giving it credit for. Obviously, there are instances of abuse, just like any time you get humans and animals mixed together... But there are a TON of people out there that raise animals for slaughter that want the animals to be in top condition, healthy as possible, and raise them to be that way. Also, there are a lot of nuances to the high level production facilities that may not be understood by "outsiders", as Christina mentioned. Many things that may sound inhumane may actually not be, when you understand the situation and the animals themselves more. This is true of almost any industry, or any culture for that matter.
Anyway, not trying to criticize you or anything. I'm just asking that you double check to make sure that you have your facts straight... and get information from both sides of the argument... before you call judgement.

 

[BluGnat]

"Also, from what I understand, a big part of the problem and what some groups are trying to improve is not the slaughter itself - but the treatment/conditions of the horses during the transporation to slaughter."

Don't have a problem with that. I am all for humane treatment of animals, and I am sure that there are some conditions that need improvement. However, I don't think that Congress should make the decision to stop the whole industry, without offering any other alternatives, just on the basis that some animals are not being properly cared for. (They could make the same argument with pets, y'know).

Totally agreed.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

"...personally had not done research on horse slaughtering..."

Just a suggestion, you might want to do a little bit more research before you start making accusations like you have been. I'm getting a degree in animal science husbandry, and there's a lot more to the industry than you're giving it credit for. Obviously, there are instances of abuse, just like any time you get humans and animals mixed together... But there are a TON of people out there that raise animals for slaughter that want the animals to be in top condition, healthy as possible, and raise them to be that way. Also, there are a lot of nuances to the high level production facilities that may not be understood by "outsiders", as Christina mentioned. Many things that may sound inhumane may actually not be, when you understand the situation and the animals themselves more. This is true of almost any industry, or any culture for that matter.
Anyway, not trying to criticize you or anything. I'm just asking that you double check to make sure that you have your facts straight... and get information from both sides of the argument... before you call judgement.

If I remember correctly, I NEVER criticized anything about the horse slaughtering. What I did criticize was the treatment of other animals, such as chickens and pigs in response to someone elses post. Don't accuse me for making accusations I never made. I strictly said I disagree with factory farms and all of that, and then continued to say that "if horses are slaughtered as everyone is saying they are, I don't have a problem with it". I love meat and have been eating it my whole life, do you honestly think I would make the jump to vegetarian without doing extreme amounts of research? I have also taken classes on this subject, as long as months worth of my own research. That is a huge lifestyle change and I didn't make it because I saw a pig die.

 

[Russ S]

Please don't let this thread turn into an arguenment or it will be closed, thank you.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Christina and OSUgecko, the last thing I want is to get in an argument. But I don't wanna be accused for saying something I never said, and told that what I know from factory farm owners themselves is not true. I see both of your points and agree with many of them, including the main topic, horse slaughtering. But let's just end the rest of the discussion here because it isn't worth it.

 

[OSUgecko]

NP, not trying to argue with or accuse anyone. Sorry if I came across that way.

I wasn't talking about horse slaughtering in the paragraph you responded to; I was talking about the animals raised specifically for slaughter. Sorry, I can understand the confusion, I didn't word that very well at all. It just seemed that some of your statements were a little strong, and the whole industry isn't like that; that's all I was saying.

Forgive me? Wasn't trying to be harsh there... just trying to give another side to things.

 

[SteveB]

I had discussed this topic with Stina recently, so I find it fascinating that this topic has popped up here and that OSUgecko has many similar viewpoints in relation to Stina's. I'm sure this is a result of their similar educational backgrounds...

Education does not automatically make someone an authority on an issue, but in this case both Stina and OSUgecko probably have had a good deal of classroom and hands on experience with the topic at hand...


The way I understand it, the animals that are being slaughtered are being humanely euthanized as opposed to being abused until the end of their natural lives. The animals that are being slaughtered would otherwise live out their lives neglected and unnoticed by regulatory agencies... by banned horse slaughter you are sentencing these horses to a slow painful prolonged death.

Many people put down their dogs and cats when the cost of care gets to be too much. Why take away that right from horse owners? And imagine the costs involved with care for an ailing horse and then the cost of disposing of a horse when it passes from a natural (and likely painful) death??

This ban is bad for both the horses and the owners...

 

[Scott&Nikki]

See, I definitely agree with that. It is weird for me to say "I am for the slaughtering of horses" but in this case, I am for sure. Maybe if they just found another way to word it, others would also see the actual humane side of it.

Forgive me? Wasn't trying to be harsh there... just trying to give another side to things.

Of course. I have nothing against the other side of it. I wish I could be on the other side of it. In fact, I am glad you said that because I honestly don't want it to sound like I am trying to impose my beliefs on anyone. I am sure we are both right and wrong. I'm just glad this didn't turn into another one of those incidents we had on here last week.

 

[StinaKSU]

Christina and OSUgecko, the last thing I want is to get in an argument. But I don't wanna be accused for saying something I never said

I never meant to accuse you of anything!...I apologize if I did. I'm just trying to share my point of view on the topics at hand. When I asked where you did your research its simply b/c I know that it is very hard to find unbiased information about farming...and a LOT of stuff out there is unreliable information (both in favor of intensive farming and against it...). I was also just trying to point out that what is humane or not really has a large grey area.....I was using debeaking as an example...I'm not necessarily in favor of it (honestly I don't know enough about it to really choose a position).....but I know why debeaking is done...and its done so the birds don't kill eachother...my point was simply that a procedure can't be taken just for what it is...you (not you specifically) have to look at the bigger picture and consider all aspects of the issue. I wasn't trying to single anyone out or anything.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I never meant to accuse you of anything!...I apologize if I did. I'm just trying to share my point of view on the topics at hand. When I asked where you did your research its simply b/c I know that it is very hard to find unbiased information about farming...and a LOT of stuff out there is unreliable information (both in favor of intensive farming and against it...). I was also just trying to point out that what is humane or not really has a large grey area.....I was using debeaking as an example...I'm not necessarily in favor of it (honestly I don't know enough about it to really choose a position).....but I know why debeaking is done...and its done so the birds don't kill eachother...my point was simply that a procedure can't be taken just for what it is...you (not you specifically) have to look at the bigger picture and consider all aspects of the issue. I wasn't trying to single anyone out or anything.

You didn't accuse me, but I don't wanna get back into that since we just solved it. It just bothered me how it was like you thought I knew nothing about it. I wouldn't make such a difficult and committing lifestyle decision without getting the facts right. It was almost torture for me to stop eating meat. Not to mention the extreme price increase in food and supplements.

To answer where I got my info from: I had a psychology class where I was first shown actual footage of a factory farm with the farmers commentary on how/why things are done. I have read books such as "Diet For A New America" and some other books, some FOR factory farms that I do not recall the name of. I have made many phone calls to USDA (not very successful), a couple factory farms here in the midwest, my psych teacher showed me about 8 studies done in the last 5 years not only on the cruelty issues, but also personal health. Then of course random websites, but who knows how legit those are. My teacher had told me that Burger King and Jewel are not only supplied by factory farms, but fund some of them as well, so I tried to question them about it. I had documentation that they gave monetary donations, but they still denied it. That in itself showed me something.

 

[StinaKSU]

I didn't think you knew nothing about it, I absolutely respect your decision and reasons for it...I just wanted to make sure you weren't basing your decision off of PETA propaganda or anything like that (not b/c I expected you to, but simply because I didn't know) and I was also just plain curious how you researched it...lol You are absolutely entitled to your opinions and again I wasn't trying to single you out or anything with anything else I said(besides the actual question of where you did your research)...Just putting my opinions and feelings out there.

 

[OSUgecko]

You are absolutely entitled to your opinions and again I wasn't trying to single you out or anything with anything else I said(besides the actual question of where you did your research)...Just putting my opinions and feelings out there.

I second Stina!

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I second Stina!

Lol, I third Christina! That was my thinking.

 

[Sandra]

As far as de-beaking specifically....chickens are cannibalistic...they beat the crap out of eachother if they can...debeaking keeps then from trying to kill eachother, its a matter of welfare...they can still eat and drink...its more humane than most "free range" farms where the chickens kill and beat up on eachother...at least in my opinion.

I'm not sure about that... I've not researched too much about these issues but I saw a documentary about environment-friendly farms that based mainly on a chicken farm. There wasn't too much overcrowding in the farmyard and the chickens had several hectares of fenced forest to walk around. They didn't de-beaking but the hens looked quite healthy anyway, I didn't saw any injures that could have resulted from cannibalism attempts. Probably without the stress of overcrowded farms these incidents decreased by a decent amount. They maybe focused only on nice scenes for the documentary and avoided showing injured chicken, LOL! But I don't think so.

Well, going back to the main topic... I didn't even know that eating horse meat was taboo in the USA! It's fairly normal to eat horse meat here in Spain. You probably won't find any in a supermarket, but you will in some dedicated butcheries. It's considered first quality and expensive meat. I've never tried it, but I can't say I wouldn't.

Edited: I forgot to say that I don't consider slaughtering horses a good solution for the problems of abuse. Those who own any kind of animal should know that it will grow old and make you pay lots of vet bills. But they served you their whole life, I think they deserve to be cared and appreciated when they are old, and you should give them a good retirement. Turning them into food is not a real solution to abuses, but more like making the best of a bad job...

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I'm not sure about that... I've not researched too much about these issues but I saw a documentary about environment-friendly farms that based mainly on a chicken farm. There wasn't too much overcrowding in the farmyard and the chickens had several hectares of fenced forest to walk around. They didn't de-beaking but the hens looked quite healthy anyway, I didn't saw any injures that could have resulted from cannibalism attempts. Probably without the stress of overcrowded farms these incidents decreased by a decent amount. They maybe focused only on nice scenes for the documentary and avoided showing injured chicken, LOL! But I don't think so.

From my research, I have found (even in books FOR factory farms) that only 20% (on the high end) have farms that are like you just described. It may be very different in Spain, that I do not know.

Well, going back to the main topic... I didn't even know that eating horse meat was taboo in the USA! It's fairly normal to eat horse meat here in Spain. You probably won't find any in a supermarket, but you will in some dedicated butcheries. It's considered first quality and expensive meat. I've never tried it, but I can't say I wouldn't.

Edited: I forgot to say that I don't consider slaughtering horses a good solution for the problems of abuse. Those who own any kind of animal should know that it will grow old and make you pay lots of vet bills. But they served you their whole life, I think they deserve to be cared and appreciated when they are old, and you should give them a good retirement. Turning them into food is not a real solution to abuses, but more like making the best of a bad job...

I agree with that last comment of yours. Thank you for adding that. With that being said, when it DOES happen, I don't consider the horse slaughtering being a terrible solution.

 

[StinaKSU]

I forgot to say that I don't consider slaughtering horses a good solution for the problems of abuse.

Please don't think that I consider it any sort of a solution! It's just that there ISN'T a solution. Millions of dogs and cats are euthanized each year that have been dumped or claimed from abusive owners....this is a similar case with horses....except that the horses are being used for meat after they're killed. It would be great if it didn't have to be done....but there really is no viable solution to the problem at the current tiime.....It's impossible to prevent people from abusing/neglecting animals and there's no way to house every unwanted animal...

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Please don't think that I consider it any sort of a solution! It's just that there ISN'T a solution. Millions of dogs and cats are euthanized each year that have been dumped or claimed from abusive owners....this is a similar case with horses....except that the horses are being used for meat after they're killed. It would be great if it didn't have to be done....but there really is no viable solution to the problem at the current tiime.....It's impossible to prevent people from abusing/neglecting animals and there's no way to house every unwanted animal...

Yeah, I agree with that 100%