Im confused by het RAPTORS

[mark97r1]

Hey guys, im really wanting in on all this RAPTOR fun. Cant really afford RAPTOR's though so considering some hets.
I am very confused as to what a RAPTOR het really is! Does this just mean they are het for tremper albino and eclipse? Or does it also mean they carry the lineage for the striping? What are the chances of actually getting a RAPTOR?

I have been looking at albinos het for RAPTOR as i see this as a much easier option instead of a double het. Its just the patterning i find confusing. Will 2 normal tang albinos het for RAPTOR give them, or would they have to be put to a stripe or RS?
I know odds cannot be given regarding the pattern, just want to know if its possible from all het combinations.

Cheers
Mark

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Good question, the term het Raptor is not used correctly by even Ron himself, and I think may be causing confusion. The "acronym" really means nothing the way that he uses it, the mutation itself is actually called "Eclipse", but then there would be no "acronym" including his name. :main_rolleyes: lol

The gecko is a "het Raptor" even if it is an Albino to him. That would be wrong, as it is obviously not het for Albino. You just have to know that in that case(that it is an albino), it is only het for Eclipse, I guess.

Easiest way I can say it is, they`re only double het Albino and Eclipse, if they are a "normal" spotted Leo. Pretty much all of the patterning genes do come along with the Eclipse genetics also.

I am one of the only breeders that tries to use the correct terminology unfortunately, but "double het Albino and Eclipse" would actually be the proper term.

 

[trizzypballr]

That is confusing in itself though Dan, because the way you say it makes it sound like the Eclipse gene causes the Patternless gene, when this cant be true because ive seen Eclipse geckos with normal patterns. I could understand it being the other way around saying the eclipse comes from PRS, but it doesnt nessessarily go the other way

 

[mark97r1]

Thanks Dan that kinda confirms my thinking.
No clearer on if i will get Raptors from them though!!

Mark

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

No problem. Well breeding two Albino "het Raptors" will give you a better chance of hatching one, about 25% chance for each egg. With a normal-spotted het Raptor you would have even less of a chance, because there would be non-Albino "Eclipse" produced if you use one normal, and one Albino.

Then the fact that all of the patterning gene/s should be present, means you can get a "Ruby Eyed Albino" in any pattern. Therefor technically not a "Raptor", unless it has the "Aptor" pattern.

The pattern of the parents will have alot to do with the patterns of the babies, but they can still produce some variety.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I think where we get confused is with the APTOR and RAPTOR part, especially since the APTOR is a specific pattern combination albino and a RAPTOR is a red-eyed version. We are looking at several combined genetic traits, and technically you can only have 'hets' with single recessive traits.

ASSuming the red eye and the eclipse eye are genetically recessive, and are the same gene expressed in the albino and non-albino form, you could have eclipse 'hets'. However, with the RAPTOR we are looking at more than one combined genetic trait.

 

[A&M Gecko]

Here is what I think, first we cannot even have hets raptor or eclipse since this is not recessive as some people have said, i would call it incomplete recessive. Also, I bred raptor to raptor and I did not hatch 100% raptor, this is impossible to happen with any recessive trait.
This is what I found out and what I do.
Breeding raptor to any other morph and then breeding the hatchlings back to a raptor you always, at least in my experience, hatch some raptors or snake eyes. I call het raptor only the babies that have at least one of the parents raptor, full red eyes, I do not know what else to call them even if is wrong.
Also, from my experiments, by breeding red stripe to albino reverse stripe I hatched what I called patternless stripes, and then breeding those to each other I hatched raptors and snake eyes which tells me that patternless stripe are the same thing as aptors. In conclusion of my experiments I feel to say that all the aptors are also het raptors, they for sure have the possibility of hatching them.
Alberto

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I completely agree, Alberto. I call them "hets"(in quotes) but will surely try my best to explain to anyone working with them, how we came to the same conclusion Alberto did. We started our Reverse Stripe Albino X Red Stripe project around the same time, and basically we both "stumbled" across the same exact thing Ron did in his "Aptor" project. Just about a year behind Ron.:main_laugh:

 

[giantkeeper]

Please don't tell me that an eclipse is not a self sustaining recessive trait....I may cry :disappointed:

.....So by your use of the term incomplete recessive, you mean it takes another trait to unlock it...correct?

 

[trizzypballr]

What confuses me though, if eclipse is "unlocked" by the patternless stripe, how comes we have spotted eclipses then? Where did that eclipse gene come from? Also, when breeding Patternless stripe to patternless stripe, do you produce all eclipses? 50% eclipses? or no special percentage, just some?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Please don't tell me that an eclipse is not a self sustaining recessive trait....I may cry

I think for the most part, it works just like a Stripe line, or any of these other lines, that were once thought to be recessive. They can give you results much like a recessive gene, but they work differently with the other patterning genes.

I know that there are "hets" out there, for many traits, Stripes, Eclipse, etc, included, that do prove out just like a recessive. So I think you will get the result you are after working w/ "hets", even if it is not exactly a recessive gene.

My only question for you Alberto is, do you think a gecko with one solid and one half solid eye, can make "hets"? One with two "snake eyes"?

I have always thought of those being just as "homozygous" as a fully red eyed Albino(Raptor). It is just that not all of them will have solid eyes.

 

[giantkeeper]

I think for the most part, it works just like a Stripe line, or any of these other lines, that were once thought to be recessive. They can give you results much like a recessive gene, but they work differently with the other patterning genes.

I know that there are "hets" out there, for many traits, Stripes, Eclipse, etc, included, that do prove out just like a recessive. So I think you will get the result you are after working w/ "hets", even if it is not exactly a recessive gene.

Gecko genetics are strange :bucktooth:

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Brandon, very few PRS, or Aptor, have no pattern at all. It seems a "Patternless" can have just about any pattern, it is IMO the abberancies to the "normal" displays of those patterns, that is what makes some of them "Patternless". Example this picture. These are 2005 PRS(from Reversestripe X Redstripe). They hatched with these almost striped patterns, w/ one or a few reverse stripe type markings. Sometimes they have a few spots, or they change as they grow.

They all hatched so different, but some hatch as complete reverse stripes, then that fades, and they turn into Red Stripes, w/ a few spots down their backs, etc. Some hatch more like stripes, then gain a few spots too.

 

[ByRandom]

I know a few people that have hatched out solid-eyed RAPTORS from Snake Eyes. However, I have always thought that the term "Snake Eyed" RAPTOR was ridiculous. I would think that they would be better termed "Snake Eyed" APTOR. RAPTOR is an acronym that stands for Ruby-Eyed Albino Patternless Tremper ORrange which was named for the full Ruby-Eyed animals, not the half - or even less - snake eyed animals. I know, it's a stupid "pet peeve", but I'm not the one that named the morph.....

 

[A&M Gecko]

Please don't tell me that an eclipse is not a self sustaining recessive trait....I may cry
.....So by your use of the term incomplete recessive, you mean it takes another trait to unlock it...correct?

I am sorry to say but this is absolutely correct, eclipse and raptor are not recessive. They do not need any other gene to unlock the trait, when some people say incomplete recessive in this case they mean that it works almost like a recessive but not 100%. The good side is that in all my cases were I bred a raptor to any other morphs and back to a raptor, up to date I always got at least snake eyes out of it. Lets say, an almost recessive, lol.

What confuses me though, if eclipse is "unlocked" by the patternless stripe, how comes we have spotted eclipses then? Where did that eclipse gene come from? Also, when breeding Patternless stripe to patternless stripe, do you produce all eclipses? 50% eclipses? or no special percentage, just some?

Eclipse is not a patternless animal and neither the patternless stripe when is full grown. Most of these animals are born patternless and then grow a pattern, just like a super snow. Eclipse can have spots and patterns, also can be reverse stripe like the raptor can be a RERS.

My only question for you Alberto is, do you think a gecko with one solid and one half solid eye, can make "hets"? One with two "snake eyes"?

We go back to the fact that those cannot be hets. I found through my breeding that breeding a snake eye raptor to a different morph and then back to a snake eye raptor lowers your percentage of getting full eye raptors, maybe I was just not lucky though. This proves for sure that also snake eye can make hets, I just chose to sell hets raptor what is from a full red eye raptor and gives better chance to my customers to hatch what they want, lets say I like be more then sure that my customers are happy and get higher percentage of raptors when they breed my "hets". This stats that you can have hets from snake eyes but I chose different and give people better chance, that is all.

However, I have always thought that the term "Snake Eyed" RAPTOR was ridiculous.

Well, lets just call it an oxymoron, lol, just like a patternless stripe with a pattern does not make sense, but the name is more for the genetics that the animal has, patternless stripe is an animal that looks patternless when hatches and is a combination from stripe and reverse stripes. I did not know what else to call them at the time, lol.
Alberto

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I see what you mean now. Thanks!

 

[mark97r1]

Thats very interesting regarding the stripes Dan.

Joshua the Ruby eye refers to the albino form of the eclipse gene. An APTOR doesnt have the eclipse gene so cannot be a 'snake eye'. I do see what you are saying though.

Mark

 

[CarrotTail]

So If Patternless in Aptors and Raptors is the same effect as Red Stripe x Reverse Stripe, We can't get true Aptor/Raptor from e.g tang albino "het. aptor" x tang. "het. aptor" because Stripes are polygenetic morph and We don't know how many genes are in gecko?

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

So If Patternless in Aptors and Raptors is the same effect as Red Stripe x Reverse Stripe, We can't get true Aptor/Raptor from e.g tang albino "het. aptor" x tang. "het. aptor" because Stripes are polygenetic morph and We don't know how many genes are in gecko?

Just to clarify, only some of the offspring from Red Stripe X Reverse Stripe Albino resembled APTORs, those are the ones that proved to be the same as the "Patternless".

To answer your question, If by true, you mean the pattern, you will have less chance of hatching one, if the normal banded gene has been bred in. I assume you mean Banded Tang Albinos, and is why I say that. You will probably have a better chance of hatching a Jungle, and for sure a Banded or Aberrant.

There are not that many Ruby Eyed Jungle or Banded Albinos out there, so that would not be a bad thing.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Dan & Alberto, have either of you hatched out any eclipse from just redstripes? How would you explain that seeing as there is no patternless stripe involved or is there? How can all the patterns be connected to the eclipse gene?