Is this total crap or what??

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Okay. So I posted a thread on here a couple weeks ago or so ago talking about an egg that we had that died after it was over due to hatch. When we cut the egg open it was severely deformed. Well since then two more clutches from that pairing have turned yellow, sweated and died. We decided to email the person that we got the female from in an effort to find out if this may be some sort of genetic issue and if so, if it may have come from the female. Honestly, every single egg from this pairing has died before hatching and all have been deformed, so I'm thinking that something is seriously wrong here. Well they emailed us back and said that they have had no issues with that line and that a lot of them have been proven breeders. That statement was fine with me. Nothing bothered me there. What got me was the next statement when they said that there was absolutely no evidence to suggest that these occurrences were related to any kind of issue with genetics. Is it just me or does like it's being automatically dismissed when, in actuality, there's no reason to automatically assume that it can't be genetic? Not to say that I KNOW it has to be, but I don't think that any option should be written off, ya know? All of our other eggs have been incubated in the same incubator, at the same temperature, and some even for the exact same time frame and all of our other eggs and hatchlings have been perfectly fine. We have one that had a slight eye crinkle, but she was the first one in there and was alone and if I'm not mistaken we hadn't gotten the incubator to maintain temp good at that point in time, so yea. (lol) So what do you guys think?

 

[JordanAng420]

Well, it's hard to say anything without knowing what the "tone" of your EMail to this breeder was...there seems to be some missing information...did you imply to this breeder that you were assuming this was a genetic flaw? Did you accuse this person? Or did you simply ask what they thought?

But I have a few questions myself...why did you automatically assume it was the problem with the female?

Who's to say there's really a problem at all...maybe you're just having bad luck with this pair this season...have they produced for you at all? When did you get this pair?

It seems like you may have jumped the gun with the "genetic problem" idea you have.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Let's see if I managed this properly. I'm guessing not, so an edit may be forthcoming.

[YT]98OTsYfTt-c[/YT]



Edit: neat, I didn't screw it up.

If the quote you attributed to them is accurate, then they did not say there was no possibility of a genetic cause, merely that there was insufficient evidence to arrive at that conclusion. Which is correct, as presented.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Well, it's hard to say anything without knowing what the "tone" of your EMail to this breeder was...there seems to be some missing information...did you imply to this breeder that you were assuming this was a genetic flaw? Did you accuse this person? Or did you simply ask what they thought?

But I have a few questions myself...why did you automatically assume it was the problem with the female?

Who's to say there's really a problem at all...maybe you're just having bad luck with this pair this season...have they produced for you at all? When did you get this pair?

It seems like you may have jumped the gun with the "genetic problem" idea you have.

We did not accuse of anything. We just said that we were aware that it could be the fault of either one, but since theirs was the only contact information that we had we were wanting to find out all we could about the female that we got from them. We followed this with a few questions just asking about the line in general and if he had had any similar issues as well.

And we never assumed it was the female alone, but as i said theirs was the only contact info that we had, that we were just trying to find out all we could about her genetics to try to rule some things out. Like if we could find out if her mother (ect.) did the same in her first season and then was okay and so on. I never said that we just automatically assumed it was the female.

In fact, I never jumped the gun with it HAVING to be a genetic issue at all, and i said that in the OP. All I said was that it seemed weird that that was just immediately ruled out right of the bat when we really could not rule anything out at this point. I think all options should be explored. When you have eggs dying left and right from a single pair everything is up for question until proven otherwise.

I also acknowledge that it may be just bad luck, as I said before it could be anything or everything for all I know. What worries me is that all eggs have done fine and then just dies out of no where and every one of them have been just as severely deformed as the last. We've had a few bad eggs, but none have been deformed. And no, they have not had a single egg hatch. She has laid quite a few actually, but everyone has done the exact same thing. There's two in there now that are supposed to hatch in a few weeks, but they already seem to be turning yellow, so we're thinking that they are going to be no exception. As far as when we purchased the pair, we didn't buy them as a pair. We bought the male about a year and a half ago and the female we got at the beginning of this year and she's about a year and half old. Male is a normal high yellow (but looks like there may be some tangerine in there somewhere.) and the female is a normal f1 (maybe f2) wild caught female. Both are completely healthy and have had no issues. Hence why we have no idea what is going on.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

If the quote you attributed to them is accurate, then they did not say there was no possibility of a genetic cause, merely that there was insufficient evidence to arrive at that conclusion. Which is correct, as presented.

Again, I never said that it was genetic or that I even thought it was genetic. All I said was that it bothered me that it seemed as though it was just being written off and we were being shrugged away. To be honest, I would HATE for it to be anything genetic. We're just trying to figure out what it is exactly, and in our current situation i don't think that any possibility should be written off as it seemed to have been. Not trying to sound like a sap or anything, but I am trying to figure this out and explore all possibilities so that we may have some sort of freaky chance to save our other babies of this pairing that are in the incubator now. It just seemed weird.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Again, I never said that it was genetic or that I even thought it was genetic.

And I never said that you said that it was. Though if your approach and interactions with them were of the same tone as your interactions on this thread, with the people who have provided helpful commentary, then your communications with this individual are all suspect.

Genetic anomalies that create reproductive problems are anomalies which, by definition, tend not to be passed along.

There are a multitude of potential causes for your experiences, with genetics being among the least likely. Incubation conditions, maternal nutrition, the environment the mother is subjected to while internal egg development occurs, the way eggs are handled and arranged, the overall physiological health of the mother, the physical function and form of her organ systems... lots and lots of reasons, with a genetic propensity for slugs way down on the list.

You contacted the breeder and asked if they had any similar problems with the lineage. They responded that they did not, and that they had no evidence in support of the idea of a genetic anomaly. Based on what you have said so far, that's simply factual... it's not a dismissal, it's not a refusal to consider the idea... it's just that a simple check of their records can either provide evidence or not provide evidence, question asked question answered.

Do you think they are lying? What the hell else do you want them to say to you? You've got a statistically insignificant pool of data, seem unwilling to really consider the idea of a mistake being made on your part and questioned their ethical integrity by suggesting that they may have sold you an animal from a defective project. Frankly I think you're damn lucky that they kept it as professional as they did; if you came to me with that approach I'd have told you to cram it and then spent a few hours hand-crafting criticisms of everything you've ever done with reptiles so that you were intimately aware of just how audacious your accusation really was.

And now you want to cop an attitude with the people who were trying to gently bring up the idea of double-checking possible causes, starting with the ones most likely to have that effect? It's crap like that which puts off experienced people from even trying to be helpful to begin with. If you knew so goddamn much then you wouldn't be here looking for answers to begin with, so mouthing off to the people that can educate you is a profoundly stupid idea.

Here's your checklist, because as contemptible as your attitude is, I've got this thing about providing information.

1- Re-check the incubator. Though a lot of potentially useful information has been lost, as the exact conditions at the specific time that the problems developed are meaningful, you can still ensure that it is not going to cause problems in the future. We tend to create our own patterns, entirely subconsciously, so be extremely specific in what and how you measure things. If the eggs from this pairing were placed in the same spot, look for small, localized issues with heat, humidity and air flow. Measure the conditions over time, and as a consequence of the ambient conditions in the room.

2- Re-check your knowledge of how to incubate. If everything in the 'bator seems fine, make sure you really know what fine actually is.

3- Consider the higher than normal probability for less than ideal eggs being produced during a girl's first breeding season. Usually young, often still growing herself, organs shifting around in her body cavity to make room for egg development for the first time ever and so on.

4- Re-check those aspects you have control over. Go over her diet, her calcium intake, the way she was kept while the eggs were developing internally. Keep in mind that the needs of a gravid animal are not identical to, or as tolerant of deviance from, the conditions that are often used for casual care and maintenance.

5- Re-check your knowledge of basic husbandry and the accuracy of your actual practices.

6- Learn a little bit about statistics and predictive biological models, recognize the existence of outliers. Acknowledge that one year from one girl is too little data to form any definite conclusions from on its own. Without supporting evidence, you may never know exactly what went wrong.

7- Know who you were dealing with. I have no clue where this animal came from, the quality or qualifications of the person who produced it, or the exact tone of the conversation that was had between the two of you... but I do know that it's very easy to imply accusations and insults when questioning a breeder about foreknowledge of a problem you are experiencing. "Does this line produce a lot of slugs?" is like asking if they sold you a defective gecko and lied about it through omission. If your attitude in your emails was anything like your attitude here, you may have burned a bridge. If you happened to deal with one of the relatively few people who are unscrupulous, then lesson learned about due diligence in the future, eh? Without knowing who that person was, I can't comment any more specifically.

8- Related to the above, if you have had an animal long enough to breed it, then you have had an animal long enough to bear the bulk of the ongoing responsibility for its health and condition. Anything that isn't genetic, and genetics are a very remote possibility in this instance, is on YOUR shoulders. Responsibility isn't culpability, but it's still yours to own and deal with. Trying to blame anyone else is wildly inappropriate.

9- Most importantly, throughout the entire process, recognize the difference between fault and guilt. Be open to the idea of identifying your own mistakes, it's the only way you'll ever correct them. In all probability, something you did or didn't do, some choice you made, some decision you arrived at, some analysis you got wrong, some bit of information you took to heart had some effect that left you with some bad eggs. There's so many factors, so many subtle things that go into the process from beginning to end that there's no shame in making a mistake. You try to predict what you can, avoid the obvious pitfalls, apply your knowledge and experience, but sometimes $#!^ just happens. You can be at fault without having any associated guilt, the two are not mutually inclusive.

10- If you're going to ask for help figuring it out, you better damn well be open to actually getting the assistance you requested. Don't start rejecting the insight of people who know more than you do just because it's not always what you wanted to hear.

11- If you did get the geckos from some scumball, feel free to come back and rub my nose in it.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I understand your disappointment and frustration, especialy when we are excited about the possible results of a pairing. But, there is no way a breeder can guarantee the 'breedability' of an animal. In many cases, it's not only one animal that may have a problem, but the combination of genes from both parents. This could account for genetic and congenital problems with offspring, and if there is egg mortality (aside from incubation conditions) it my be Mother Nature's way of culling offspring to keep the gene pool robust.

Try breeding the female with another male next season... ?

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

And I never said that you said that it was.



And now you want to cop an attitude with the people who were trying to gently bring up the idea of double-checking possible causes, starting with the ones most likely to have that effect? It's crap like that which puts off experienced people from even trying to be helpful to begin with. If you knew so goddamn much then you wouldn't be here looking for answers to begin with, so mouthing off to the people that can educate you is a profoundly stupid idea.

I never got an attitude with anyone thank you very much. All I wanted to know was if it sounded like a dismissal as it felt to us while we were reading the e-mail and what some opinions were on the situation in general. I did not get an attitude and I never dismissed any advice. If I wanted to have a damn attitude then I would have gotten one. All I asked was a simple question, with no attitude or nothing so I don't know why ur sitting here jumping down my god damn throat when I never did anything to you. So what ever.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

I understand your disappointment and frustration, especialy when we are excited about the possible results of a pairing. But, there is no way a breeder can guarantee the 'breedability' of an animal. In many cases, it's not only one animal that may have a problem, but the combination of genes from both parents. This could account for genetic and congenital problems with offspring, and if there is egg mortality (aside from incubation conditions) it my be Mother Nature's way of culling offspring to keep the gene pool robust.

Try breeding the female with another male next season... ?

I know they cant. Thats why i didnt get all mad at them when it started happening lol. U never know how one is going to do until u actually breed them, ya know? Lol

We talked about that earlier. We also were talking about getting another incubator for those eggs alone and keeping them under absolutely perfect conditions to see if maybe that's the issue. I want to try to breed them both with separate partners, since we have no idea who has the issue, if there even is one. To be honest though, I'm scared to try it because we've had all of those deformed ones, I'm afraid that one will actually hatch like that and then just suffer, ya know?

On the thread that I posted about it last (right after the first egg died and we cut it open) everyone said to separate the two and wait til the next clutch and see what they do then make my decision from there, but idk. i don't want to keep breeding the female and causing her unnecessary stress if there all gonna turn out like that.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Do you think they are lying? What the hell else do you want them to say to you? You've got a statistically insignificant pool of data, seem unwilling to really consider the idea of a mistake being made on your part and questioned their ethical integrity by suggesting that they may have sold you an animal from a defective project. Frankly I think you're damn lucky that they kept it as professional as they did; if you came to me with that approach I'd have told you to cram it and then spent a few hours hand-crafting criticisms of everything you've ever done with reptiles so that you were intimately aware of just how audacious your accusation really was.

And for your information I never accused anyone of anything. We simply asked so we could figure out why all of our babies were dying. We were never disrespectful. We're not mad about it at all, so we're not going to be rude about it, and I don't think they were lying. For you to jump to that conclusion is just absolutely ridiculous, to be quite honest. As I have said already, all I wanted to know is if other people felt the same way and we should mark it off the list and look into other options or should we leave it on the drawing board, and that it made me feel as though we were being dismissed. No where in there did I come out and say omg they're lying to us. And as far as the whole "defective project" thing. That topic was never brought up. We just asked if there had been any history of having some bad luck with any eggs from that line, all the while stating that we knew that it could be from the male as well and that we didn't yet think it was even genetic, but was trying to rule that out. There was not a single accusation in the entire conversation. Only questions, and I frankly never thought that asking questions for a good reason was a bad thing, but apparently I was wrong on that part since I'm getting my head bitten off for it.

and at what point did I seem unwilling to accept fault on my part? All I said was that the conditions for these eggs were the same as our other eggs, which have all hatched just fine. That doesn't mean that I think we can do no wrong, just that we've been doing everything the same for all of them and these are the only ones that have turned out bad.

I also feel the need to add that we have gotten almost all of our geckos from the same breeder, and I have never questioned their credibility, and I am not questioning it now. They're good people and good breeders and i know they would never sell anything that they new was "defective". As I said before. All I asked was questions to help us clear this all up.