Just had the biggest surprise of my life

[Phoenix1115]

So this season I got a new female, Charm, a Pacific Green. I bred her with my favorite normal male because I wanted one of his offspring. I was just expecting normals, maybe even some with a more orange base. With the first egg, that's what I got.

His clutchmate took another day and a half to hatch, and this is what I saw this morning when I checked on the eggs.

An albino?? I racked my brain and remembered that both of Charm's parents were "possible het RAPTOR." However, to my knowledge, they hadn't been proven as actually het RAPTOR. Well, that's possible. What really stumped me was my "Normal" male. I produced him myself from two "Normals." So I contacted the man I got them from and he told me that they're part of a normal colony he's had for years. The originals from that colony, though, he doesn't know their origin. But it's so strange to me that that colony could have bred and interbred for years without the albino gene popping up.

I left the baby alone to let it finish hatching.

After it fully emerged, it looked like a tremper to me. But then he opened his eyes. Red.

So now here's my question for you.

I work mainly with line bred traits so I don't know too much about the recessives. (My whole collection is made of Pacs, Tangs, Jungles, and Normals)

1) Can Trempers have red eyes with no other typical RAPTOR traits?
2) Could it be a banded RAPTOR?
3) What do you think the little guy is?

For further info,

Here is a picture of both sets of grandparents

And here are the parents

 

[KTyne]

That's crazy.
It might be that you just stumbled upon a natural mutation that happened in the lineage of your line and is just showing.
I'm curious to see what others will say as I'm not great on morphs yet!

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I think this is a great example of how a recessive trait can remain a hidden het for generations before popping out. I would assume that waaaay back, even 10 generations or more, one of the geckos was bred with an albino and no one knew it. Now you know that every single one of your geckos is a possible het for at least one strain of albino and if you ever decide to add an albino trait or if you are selling them to someone who intends to breed them into an albino line they should be proved out before doing so (IMO that's just good practice anyhow).

Did you incubate that little guy for male? If so they can hatch with the eyes looking bright solid red and they may develop a more "normal" albino pigment over time. I don't have first hand experience with them but I know Bell albinos also can hatch with much redder eyes than the other two strains. In a week or so look to see if you can distinguish a pupil. If not he very well could be an eclipse but I would think he probably is not with the banding and no other eclipse characteristics. While possible, the chances of two hidden hets being passed down for multiple generations is slim.

I'd love to see a closer eye shot of the SHT parent. In that last picture you have her spots look dark but her eyes almost look albino...

 

[Phoenix1115]

Thanks! Yeah, he was incubated for male, and Mom's breeder said the same think about the eyes looking red at first then changing as he ages. So I'll check on the in a week.

Charm is an Emerine and definitely not albino, but obviously carries the gene! haha. Here's a better look at her eyes

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Oh yeah - definitely not albino but definitely het for it! Congrats on finding a het and hatching some healthy babies

 

[acpart]

I just posted a new thread about getting some similarly unexpected outcomes (not the Tremper, though) like an eclipse from a 9 year old Tremper albino (older than the eclipse trait if I'm not mistaken) and a supersnow from a gecko I hadn't been told was a Mack snow. It's interestingly weird. You could call the hatchling a "banded Raptor" if the eyes remain red, though I'd prefer to call it an eclipse albino and to save "Raptor" for truly patternless geckos.

Aliza

 

[Phoenix1115]

I had a question about what to call these and other babies that hatch from this pairing. Since the parents are Emerine pos het RAPTOR x Het Tremper (suspected) would this albino baby be Emerine Tremper pos het RAPTOR? (he's already orange so he's definitely Emerine) And would the normal one be normal/emerine (depending what he turns out to be) pos het RAPTOR? The Normal could just be pos het Tremper too though.

Also, can some of the RAPTOR genes be passed on but not all of them? So Charm was Emerine pos het RAPTOR. But now I know that she carries at least the albino gene. So is she still pos het for RAPTOR since the other genes haven't been proven out yet, or is she confirmed het RAPTOR? And since she is definitely confirmed het Tremper is she Emerine het Tremper pos het RAPTOR?

Sorry if that was confusing!

 

[DrCarrotTail]

If you had a Tremper hatch then the one parent is definitely het for Tremper. I really don't think that baby is a Raptor. It shows none of the characteristic signs that the eclipse trait is present but its definitely albino.

If I were selling them I would probably label the normal colored babies as 66% het tremper and possible het eclipse. Of course this means they are possible het for Raptor as well but there's a higher chance the babies get one or the other trait and not both so I would spell it out and not say Raptor. I would also disclose that I did not know the one was het for Tremper and it could also have other hets I did not know about as well.

 

[DrCarrotTail]

P.S. I would call the one "Emerine het Tremper possible het Raptor" like you said unless the breeder you got her from confirmed that she was from a visual Raptor x something else pairing.

 

[Phoenix1115]

Thanks! Okay cool I wasn't sure if the RAPTOR genes were always passed down together or not. So if I understand correctly I'd call them:

Mom- Emerine het Tremper pos het RAPTOR
Dad- Het Tremper (other possible unknown genes)
Oddball- Emerine Tremper pos het Eclipse
Other Baby- Normal/Emerine (wait to see color) pos het Tremper pos het RAPTOR

Or do I say p.het tremper p.het eclipse since the tremper gene is part of RAPTOR?
Also do I say the same for the patternless part of the RAPTOR combo?

 

[DrCarrotTail]

A Raptor is a Tremper albino eclipse. They are two totally separate traits. Some folks argue that to be called a Raptor the gecko also has to look patternless but this patternless is not governed by a recessive trait, it stems from the gecko having reverse stripe and stripe genes in it. If the gecko is Tremper and possibly eclipse you can say possible het eclipse or Raptor. if there are different probabilities of the gecko being Tremper and eclipse then IMO you should spell it out. I would spell it out anyhow on normal colored offspring unless one or both of the parents was a visual Raptor, but that's just my preference.

As for Emerine, it's the green tinged orange coloration developed by Ron Tremper. There are other green geckos out there, like the pacific green for example. IMO calling a gecko an emerine means you are 100% sure it came from Ron's blood lines. If you are not sure I personally wouldn't call it that but I know a lot of folks have adopted the term as a general term for a greenish orange gecko. I'm pretty conservative in my use of buzz words tho

 

[Phoenix1115]

Wow thanks you're really helping me out! I thought Emerine was just the term for the green/orange guys. Mine are Pacific Greens, parents straight from Pacific Gecko. So I'll be sure to say Pac. Green instead of Emerine =)

I understand now about spelling out the traits too, thanks a bunch! My next clutch from this pairing should be hatching in 2-4 days so I'm excited to see if I get more albinos