Let's pool info on TSD in Mack snows!

[Sarah H]

I've noticed that the males don't show signs that they're males until they're a lot larger 40-50g. We got a small temperature sexed "female" and it wasnt until around 40g when I started second guessing him/her. I checked him/her every time I fed, and could never tell either way. Finally around 50 grams and 4 months in age I could finally see some darkness in the pores. The bulges still werent very large, but the darker pores finally gave it away.

I've heard from others that the mack males seems to be late bloomers. It's kind of annoying.

This just happened to me as well. My female SS is now a male.
Maybe they should be sold sexed untill over 30 grams.
I think my SS was in the 15-20 grams range when i got him and he was sexed as female.

 

[BalloonzForU]

Ok, I've got baby macks now... two SS and two more eggs due to hatch in another 2.5 weeks, incubated at 85. I'm hopping I don't have to wait till 40-50 grams to sex these two, or others I hatch this year, as that would really stink.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

I had a male not show until he was over 40 grams. One day he had no buldges, then he "grew" them, all of a sudden. All of the time previous to this, I was thinking I had a Hypo Mack female for my Super Hypo MAck to breed with. No such luck!

 

[eyelids]

Yep, my Snake Eye Mack did the same thing to me... Another strange thing is one of mine has pores, but no buldges and mated with my male so it's either female or ...

 

[MHGeckos]

I have a question. What is TSD When I bought my Super Snow as a male I thought it was a male but... she is a female. She is about 30g so she can become a male soon:main_rolleyes:

 

[justin-branam]

I have a question. What is TSD When I bought my Super Snow as a male I thought it was a male but... she is a female. She is about 30g so she can become a male soon:main_rolleyes:

i believe it stands for Temperature Sex Determined (aka: sex was determined only by what temp it was incubated)

 

[okapi]

What do you mean by this? Hybrids of what? Intergrades of what? I am easily confused.

I think VMSherp explains it best when it comes to all of the species/subspecies that were imported and interbred:

Leopard Gecko Trade Names
Leopard Geckos, as we know them in the pet trade, are genetic mutts! I don't mean to sound harsh here, but it helps a lot to realize this. Most of the Leopard Geckos available today can be traced back to large numbers of wild-caught specimens imported in the late 1970s. At that time, little scientific information was available about these geckos and most hobbyists had no idea there were several closely related species and subspecies among the imports. The result: many forms were bred together and today we have a genetic mess on our hands. That's the downside, the upside is that we have a lot of genetic variability present as a result!

Leopard Geckos In The wild:
The Leopard Gecko (Eublepharis macularius) as taxonomists currently recognize it, consists of five subspecies found in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Western India (Rajasthan, Ajmer, Madar foothills), Iraq and Iran. They are:

Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus GÃœNTHER 1864

Eublepharis macularius afghanicus BÖRNER 1976

Eublepharis macularius macularius BLYTH 1854

Eublepharis macularius montanus BÖRNER 1976

Eublepharis macularius smithi BÖRNER 1981

Additionally, four closely related species are currently recognized. At least one of these was formerly included in the E. macularius complex and has undoubtedly contributed it's unique genetic make-up to the mix currently kept in captivity as well. They are:

Eublepharis angramainyu

Eublepharis fuscus

Eublepharis hardwickii

Eublepharis turcmenicus

What does all this mean? Well, it means that today's pet Leopard Geckos are subject to an enormous amount of natural variation. In addition, several true genetic traits have been uncovered. These, combined with the natural variation, have led to the 'naming' of innumerable morphs. Many are nothing more than natural variation, and will not breed true when crossed to others with differing appearances. Others are a bit more complex and breed true, but with variation.

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

TS Dependant

 

[nwheat]

I have a question. What is TSD When I bought my Super Snow as a male I thought it was a male but... she is a female. She is about 30g so she can become a male soon:main_rolleyes:

Mateusz, TSD refers to the fact that incubation temperature is what determines sex in leopard geckos - they do not have a pair of sex chromosomes as many animals do.

Steph, I have a really hard time wrapping my mind around how sex chromosomes could come and go. It has happened, but I believe it must be an incredibly rare event. Having extra, or less, genetic material is so often fatal. An extra chromosome is the least likely to be fatal, but I think it would take generations for that extra chromosome to become an established sex chromosome.

Also, I think it is highly likely that all of the subspecies have the same number of chromosomes anyway. This may not be true for other species of Eublepharis, though. I have only been able to find numbers for E. macularis.

Two of the bigger Mack snow breeders have indicated no difference at all for Mack snows, so I'm inclined to think it isn't something huge like the appearance of a sex chromosome. Maybe something smaller like a propensity of certain males to father sons....

 

[Kotsay1414]

My Mack Snow is cross with Eublepharis macularius fasciolatus from Albey.

 

[Kotsay1414]

I made a graph to show the information people have given. Please feel free to add more input and I'll add to the graph.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Cool idea!

 

[LeosForLess]

I think this is a good idea, but the only problem is that everybody doesnt have the same thermostat, etc. so i could say im incubating at 84 but its really 86, like how some people get 100% female at 84 and some get 75-50% female at that temperature. So far 4/4 of my sexable macks incubated at 90 are male. 2 more should be in a week or so for sure but they look to be male also

 

[Kotsay1414]

I think this is a good idea, but the only problem is that everybody doesnt have the same thermostat, etc. so i could say im incubating at 84 but its really 86, like how some people get 100% female at 84 and some get 75-50% female at that temperature.

You make a good point. This will give us a rough estimate which we can use to see if they really are TSD or there are just a few isolated cases of them not being TSD

 

[LeosForLess]

You should ask Kelli and the macks so you can get some large number. And make it 5/5 for me with males at 90 degrees

 

[Haroldo]

I would try and get Alex Hue to give some info on this subject. He works directly with the Macks and was mostly responsible for bringing them to the market. Needless to say, he's got quite a bit of experience in breeding all Mack varieties...

 

[Kotsay1414]

You should ask Kelli and the macks so you can get some large number. And make it 5/5 for me with males at 90 degrees

I would try and get Alex Hue to give some info on this subject. He works directly with the Macks and was mostly responsible for bringing them to the market. Needless to say, he's got quite a bit of experience in breeding all Mack varieties...

I sent an e-mail to both Kelli and Alex. Thanks guys!