New to the forum...hello!

[HipHerp]

Hello, another newbie here. I'm an old hand at herps though, but was away from it for awhile. I recently decided I wanted to get back into leos, and I must admit, the morphs have gone off the chart and I'm way behind. When I last had leos the high yellow was the state of the art in morphs.....boy has that all changed. Guess I can blame my old friend Ron Tremper for that, (or a lot of it at least), so it appears I have to re-educate myself as far as morphs are concerned. With that in mind, I'll attach a photo of one of my girls, an albino, (at least I think she's an albino); however, my question to y'all is whether she is a Bell or Tremper albino? Lavender albino maybe? If anyone has any ideas about what exactly this particular variety of morph might be called please shout!

I have three other females, two high-yellow carrot tails, and one just plain 'ol normal, (pretty girl anyway though). I'll be looking for a male soon, but for the time being I'm just doting on my girls and seeing how fat I can get them. They all were hatched in 2012, but the high-yellows are nearly full-growed and a couple of months older than the others. Unfortunately I have no clue to their origins, other than they were on sale at +++++, (I know, shame on me....but a bargain is a bargain, and these were a bargain). Thanks ahead of time for any help on the ID of this morph.

Hip

BTW: Hopefully the jpg I just tried to upload shows up on my post, as I find this upload manager a little bit funky to use, (at least compared to other forums I frequent). It doesn't show up in the preview, so all I can do is post it and see what happens. H

*(I might add that this photo doesn't do her justice, this photo makes her look a lot more faded than she really is. The lavender is much deeper, and the yellow much brighter than it looks in this photo. My camera is an older 5mp Kodak, so that's the best I can do with what I have).

 

[Ghostoftangerine17]

Welcome!

The Leopard Gecko Wiki has pages on Tremper and Bell so you can probably compare your leo's eyes and see which one it resembles

I would guess yours is a very cute Tremper based on its pupil

 

[HipHerp]

Welcome!

The Leopard Gecko Wiki has pages on Tremper and Bell so you can probably compare your leo's eyes and see which one it resembles

I would guess yours is a very cute Tremper based on its pupil

Thanks, I tried to look closely at the eyes, but unfortunately my eyes aren't so good anymore, guess I'll have to get a magnifying glass. I was one of Ron's first customers when he first went private back in the 70's in Fresno before he moved to Texas. The morph world has gone crazy since then...wow! Thanks for the link, I'll get busy and do some homework!

Hip

 

[Lindz0518]

She is beautiful, I would say Tremper, a Bells eyes are more pink/red and a Tremper is more silver. Welcome!

 

[HipHerp]

She is beautiful, I would say Tremper, a Bells eyes are more pink/red and a Tremper is more silver. Welcome!

Thank you. Having known Ron back in the 70's I'm glad I just so happened to get a descendant of one of his lines. She is growing fast and getting prettier every day; can't wait till I can pair her up and see what new surprises she might have hidden in her genes. However, she is what I would call a "couch potato", she prefers that I offer her food with tweezers...that way all she has to do is stick her head out of her box and chow down. Like so many pretty girls she's totally a spoiled and pampered brat!

Hip

 

[Lindz0518]

All 3 of mine are spoiled. My female Bell won't even chase crickets anymore so she gets a bowl of mealworms and she half lays in the bowl when she eats, lazy.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Thank you. Having known Ron back in the 70's I'm glad I just so happened to get a descendant of one of his lines. She is growing fast and getting prettier every day; can't wait till I can pair her up and see what new surprises she might have hidden in her genes. However, she is what I would call a "couch potato", she prefers that I offer her food with tweezers...that way all she has to do is stick her head out of her box and chow down. Like so many pretty girls she's totally a spoiled and pampered brat!

Hip

It's not really suggested to breed pet store leos. They might be pretty, but given that you have no idea what genes they possess, you have no idea what you'll produce, and won't even really know very well what the babies have in their genes. Obviously up to you, but you said you've been out of the game for a while, so I'm just letting you know that that's become the general consensus.

~Maggot

 

[HipHerp]

All 3 of mine are spoiled. My female Bell won't even chase crickets anymore so she gets a bowl of mealworms and she half lays in the bowl when she eats, lazy.

It's amazing how quickly they figure out where their meals come from isn't it. That's one of the charms of leos, they seem to like being pampered!

Hip

 

[HipHerp]

Well, my four girls just got a boyfriend. My friend who owns the local pet store called & said she had a
"rescue adoption" for me, (she knows I take in wayward herps....sigh:main_rolleyes, so I went down and lo and behold she had a 2yr old high-yellow male Leo for me. He was nice and healthy looking, very tame and mellow, so I caved and brought him home. I was going to get a male eventually, but was going to pick and choose from internet offerings. However, since this boy was free I figure I'll just start out with him, (after an appropriate quarantine of course). The pet store lady said she will buy any babies I end up with, so I guess I'll get started with him and see what happens. I also recently got a rack system for my Ball Pythons, (Vision 11 shelf w/ V-70, V-35, & baby tubs), and have several empty slots, so with the Herpstat and the extra heat tape I have I'll be moving the entire herd to the rack soon . Pics of the 80 gram male below.

Hip

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I could never sell leos to a pet store, 'cause I know how most of them end up, but I hope it works out.

~Maggot

 

[HipHerp]

I could never sell leos to a pet store, 'cause I know how most of them end up, but I hope it works out.

~Maggot

Well, I am a former pet store owner myself, and the store I referred to is run by an old, very experienced friend. She does her best to assure her customers know what they are getting into. She will even buy animals back if the customers can't deal with them appropriately. She knows that any animals I provide her will be healthy and properly maintained, and that's good for the animals, her business and customers alike. For that matter, how do any of the online breeders know that their animals will be properly cared for after they're sold? Answer....they don't! When any reptile is sold there is always a chance that the person buying the animal won't be able to, by accident ignorance or negligence, properly care for their purchase. The pet industry has always suffered from the image that any animal bought in a pet store will be mistreated, but that is simply not always, (or even usually), the case....most successful pet stores would not be successful if they didn't do a good job of educating their customers, so the occasional mis-treatment of any sold animal is an occurrence that cannot be totally avoided by anyone selling an animal anywhere...online from a breeder or from a pet store. The assumption that all pet stores, and their owners, are greedy "bad guys" only concerned with profit is false. Yes, like any crate of apples, there will be a few rotten ones, but most of the pet store owners I have known are concerned, responsible animal lovers that don't deserve being painted with such a broad brush. And, as a matter of fact, many of the most successful online reptile dealers & breeders also have "brick and mortar" stores as well as their online business, and many also sell wholesale to pet stores, (where do you think the big chain stores get their animals...they aren't breeding them themselves!). As a matter of fact some members here on this forum, some with the biggest, brightest advertisements, do indeed sell their animals into the pet trade and have done so for years, (a fact I can attest to personally, but I won't name them). So, thinking that all pet stores will be substandard places to purchase an animal is unfair and untrue.
Sorry for the lecture, but there are many, many responsible people in the pet industry, and they are on the front lines of education concerning reptiles in captivity, and should be acknowledged as such.

Hip

 

[Embrace Calamity]

For that matter, how do any of the online breeders know that their animals will be properly cared for after they're sold? Answer....they don't!

I never said otherwise. Though, you could argue that someone who's going to buy a high-end gecko and pay the $50 shipping is more likely to be very knowledgeable than someone who just walks into a pet store.

When any reptile is sold there is always a chance that the person buying the animal won't be able to, by accident ignorance or negligence, properly care for their purchase.

Never said otherwise.

most successful pet stores would not be successful if they didn't do a good job of educating their customers

How?

The assumption that all pet stores, and their owners, are greedy "bad guys" only concerned with profit is false.

That's cool, 'cause I never said anything like that at all.

...most of the pet store owners I have known are concerned, responsible animal lovers that don't deserve being painted with such a broad brush.

No one did?

And, as a matter of fact, many of the most successful online reptile dealers & breeders also have "brick and mortar" stores as well as their online business, and many also sell wholesale to pet stores, (where do you think the big chain stores get their animals...they aren't breeding them themselves!).

I'm perfectly aware of where the pet stores get their animals...hence this conversation.

As a matter of fact some members here on this forum, some with the biggest, brightest advertisements, do indeed sell their animals into the pet trade and have done so for years, (a fact I can attest to personally, but I won't name them).

Yes, I'm aware of that as well. Many people on this forum are breeders, and I was never under the assumption that they kept every single gecko they produced.

So, thinking that all pet stores will be substandard places to purchase an animal is unfair and untrue.

I agree. Good thing I never said anything like that.

Sorry for the lecture, but there are many, many responsible people in the pet industry, and they are on the front lines of education concerning reptiles in captivity, and should be acknowledged as such.

I don't mind lectures. I mind when people put words in my mouth and then get all uppity and tell me things I already know based on things I never said. All I said was that I couldn't personally sell any animal to a pet store because I have no idea where they'd end up, but having been on this and other reptile forums and knowing people who've owned reptiles, I see a lot of people who mistreat their reptiles - even people who do know better. And 90% of them have come from pet stores. I never said anything about the owners or the breeders being bad people, so why you'd assume that and then lecture me about how it's not true is just...so beyond any level of rationality.

~Maggot

 

[HipHerp]

I never said otherwise. Though, you could argue that someone who's going to buy a high-end gecko and pay the $50 shipping is more likely to be very knowledgeable than someone who just walks into a pet store.Never said otherwise. How?That's cool, 'cause I never said anything like that at all. No one did? I'm perfectly aware of where the pet stores get their animals...hence this conversation. Yes, I'm aware of that as well. Many people on this forum are breeders, and I was never under the assumption that they kept every single gecko they produced. I agree. Good thing I never said anything like that.
I don't mind lectures. I mind when people put words in my mouth and then get all uppity and tell me things I already know based on things I never said. All I said was that I couldn't personally sell any animal to a pet store because I have no idea where they'd end up, but having been on this and other reptile forums and knowing people who've owned reptiles, I see a lot of people who mistreat their reptiles - even people who do know better. And 90% of them have come from pet stores. I never said anything about the owners or the breeders being bad people, so why you'd assume that and then lecture me about how it's not true is just...so beyond any level of rationality.

~Maggot

I'll try to answer chronologically as best I can. I really apologize, I wasn't trying to single you out.

For one, I have personally witnessed people spend thousands impulsively on animals with no experience or thought of husbandry, just a desire to have that animal and deep pockets. I agree that an online purchase from a specialty breeder would ordinarily be from an experienced buyer, but it is not an unknown occurrence for it to be an impulse buy. After shipment a breeder has no way to assure whether their animal is going to a responsible person or not; how would they?

Didn't say you said otherwise, just elaborating.

How do they educate? By spending time with their customers, educating their employees, and providing customers with information, advice and encouragement. Most importantly a successful pet store will make sure they are knowledgeable about their "products", and be insistent about sharing that knowledge with a purchaser. A store that doesn't serve their customers that way won't survive. And, if they do survive they deserve to make a profit, (just as breeders deserve to make a profit). Not everyone will buy an animal online, and being able to buy from a local shop keeps their dollars in the community, (again, making a statement, not necessarily responding personally to you).

You are absolutely correct, you didn't say that. but........that is an inference which a reader could get from that remark. I mentioned that because there is a not-so-uncommon attitude out there regarding pet stores, and for the most part I believe it is undeserved.

Again, just elaborating on the subject, not pointing fingers at any particular person.

I'm glad you are aware of where stores get their stock, many people aren't. Many are also not aware that large scale wild-caught importing is still occurring, (many advertised "CB" animals from some online dealers are in fact "wild-caught, captive bred ", which still denudes wild populations), and if there is an evil in the herp world that would surely be it. I would be pleased if all WC imports were outlawed, but sadly it still occurs. I mentioned that because a lot of people have no idea where the animals come from, and make incorrect assumptions about where they originate. However, your post mentioned that you would never sell your animals to a pet store. The inferences that can be made from that statement could be construed as a general disdain for pet stores, and I was commenting on that possible inference. In fact, if pet stores weren't out there I doubt that the designer CB reptile world would exist as it does today. Many specialty breeders got their very first reptiles from a pet store as a kid, had they not been able to get that first lizard would their eventual obsession and business have ever happened? Perhaps not. Again, I'm just elaborating on a subject, not necessarily pointing fingers at you.

I really didn't intend on putting words in anyone's mouth, but having spent decades in the pet industry I know that there is a prevailing attitude in some circles that all pet stores are mills that sell animals with no thought for their welfare, and it is simply not true. If pet stores go the way of the Dodo, then private keepers of herptiles won't be far behind. I was elaborating on that theme, not personally attacking you.

I apologize if my remarks were seen by you as a lecture to you personally, they weren't necessarily, just a response about certain attitudes out there. I totally agree that many people should not own reptiles at all, and that many of those come from pet stores, (of course, but not all). Fact is some people shouldn't even be allowed to drive a car, but they have the right to do so anyway whether we like it or not; the same principle applies to pet ownership. I do personally know of some animals sold by specialty breeders that eventually languished and perished due to poor care, so it can happen to any seller; pet store or online. Actually, I just rescued a large boa from an irresponsible owner who had gotten it originally from a local breeder, not at a pet store. I didn't necessarily need another snake, but I took it anyway for the snake's sake. It was all arranged by that same pet store btw; thus showing their concern for the animal. They also just gave me the male leo I got yesterday mainly out of concern for the animal, since keeping it there would not have allowed it to adequately recover from it's previous mishandling. They could have just thrown it in a cage and tried to sell it, but they thought it would be better off with me, so I applaud their decision and commitment to pet welfare.

Like it or not, the local pet store is the face of the CB reptile business that most people see, and it is the front line for educating the public regarding proper husbandry for all animals kept as pets. That there are irresponsible stores out there goes without saying, but I wanted to point out that doesn't necessarily apply to all pet stores. Like anything else they should be judged by their actions and practices.

I think if I hadn't quoted your post my remarks may have been generally acceptable to you, so I hope you accept this apology.

Hip (a well-known feather-ruffler)

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Wow, I'm so not reading all of that. I really don't care that much. My statement was simply that I wouldn't have the heart to know even a single one of any animal I produced could end up neglected or abused. That's it. Nothing more. No need to get yourself all worked up or act like I'm attacking anyone because I'm not, so you have fun with your delusions of persecution. Toodles.

~Maggot

 

[HipHerp]

Wow, I'm so not reading all of that. I really don't care that much. My statement was simply that I wouldn't have the heart to know even a single one of any animal I produced could end up neglected or abused. That's it. Nothing more. No need to get yourself all worked up or act like I'm attacking anyone because I'm not, so you have fun with your delusions of persecution. Toodles.

~Maggot

On the contrary, not worked up at all. Just wanted you to know I was sorry for any misunderstanding and was trying to explain why.

Hip

 

[acpart]

Getting back to one of the things we were talking about, I do occasionally sell to pet stores but only after I've already gone in there incognito and checked them out. The pet store owners also have to agree not to house the leos on sand (hasn't been a problem).

Aliza

 

[HipHerp]

Getting back to one of the things we were talking about, I do occasionally sell to pet stores but only after I've already gone in there incognito and checked them out. The pet store owners also have to agree not to house the leos on sand (hasn't been a problem).

Aliza

Thanks for replying, I was feeling bad about p**sing someone off, (not really, really bad, just a little bad:main_rolleyes.

Good policy. In my case, though I have been away from the biz for a while, I still have friends with stores. When they heard I was going to do some small-scale breeding again they immediately agreed to take anything I came up with. At this point I have two different well-established stores, (old friends both), willing to take whatever I can produce. They both have class acts and know what they are doing with herps, so no issues there. I have no desire to hit the road & do wholesale sales and deliveries again, (sold/delivered tropical fish and reptiles both to stores...back in the "good 'ol days"; had a store of my own too). All I want now is to cover my feed bills more than anything else, because at this point in my life I'm just doing it for the sheer joy of it. My daughter just recently "left the nest" so to speak, and since I have more time on my hands I guess I just need something else to do with myself. I got out of the business right before she was born, but now that she's all grown up I can get back to being me, (which is doing silly things like raising reptiles for fun & maybe a little profit). Believe me, raising a few lizards & snakes again ain't near as hard as raising that kid was, and the best part is they don't talk back like she did, (and still does!!)!!

Hip