Paprika as color enhancing supplement?

[andred82vert]

Has anyone here used paprika as a color enhancing supplement? I know some that some poison dart frog breeders use paprika to enhance the reds/yellows/ oranges of their frogs. I just bought a bag of paprika and i'm thinking of dusting my crickets with it. Is this a good idea for our leopard geckos?

 

[Stevie]

I use carrots (same pigment). I don't dust my crickets with it, but I use it to gutload the crickets etc. Paprika (the fruit, not the powder) can be used in a same way. I have never heard of people dusting their cricket with the powder.

Greets,

Stevie

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Why would you want to artificially enhance the coloration of your geckos? Also, paprika is hot and spicy... seems like it wouldn't be a good thing to feed.

 

[rcobourn]

Aha, new gecko food option: Cricket Paprikash, with mealworms in place of dumplings. Yum.

BTW, that is the craziest idea I have heard since I escaped from the insane asylum.

 

[LeapinLizards]

In every facet of breeding...whether it's dogs, cats, reptiles, etc. there are supplements to increase size, color, weight, you name it! What it comes down to is whether or not you find it wrong to supplement the animal to gain the result you find more favorable, even if it is "fake" (whether it be for selling, or showing). I have in the past bred German Rottweilers...and I know of a supplement that can darken a dog's gums (The darker in color, the better), however morally, I believe it is wrong to give my animals something that changes how they are NATURALLY.

Another thing Marcia brought up is the fact that Paprika can be spicy. A leopard geckos natural diet has nothing spicy in it, therefore you can only assume that it's body would not be able to properly process the spices.

Supplementing the Paprika could possibly result in a color enhancement, but really what is the point? If you bred that animal, it would not pass on that color, being that it's NATURAL color is obviously not what is represented on the animal.

There are plenty of NATURALLY BRED morphs out there that are amazing in color, such as the Tangerine Tornado that The Urban Gecko are working with.

 

[hoppslover]

Instead of giving them Paprika you should give them this chili that I make. Ill tell you what if you are looking for red. It makes my face blazzing red everytime I eat it. lol That was just a joke by the way.

 

[Allen Repashy]

Why would you want to artificially enhance the coloration of your geckos?

I just thought I would jump in on this one as my first post on the forums here.

Carotenoids ( Xanthopylls and carotenes) in their natural state are NOT artifical color enhancers. They are natural compounds that are abundant in nature, but nearly non existent in captive diets. Carotenoids are not just pigments, they are a bioactive and antioxidant compounds that are currently being studied very intensely for their "nutraceutical" value. First, all carotenoid pigments are precursors to vitamin A, and can be converted into preformed Vitamin A in many species when deficiency occurs. Some of the well know compounds are Astaxanthin (pink-red pigments) Canthaxanthin (orange pigments) and Zeaxanthin (yellow pigments). Zeaxanthin for example is an important component in the retina of the eye, as well as Leutein. Beta carotene is one of the most famous Carotenoids

In nature, insects and plants are bursting with Carotenoids from their natural exposure to nutrients. Crickets raised on chicken feed get nearly nil.

Carotenoids are one of the truly misunderstood nutrients that have been little studied.

My personal experience with understanding Carotenoids started 25 years ago as a general observation. I was keeping Chameleons... then moved into Geckos, Frilled Lizards... even Iguanas.. One thing I noticed was that the colors of wild caught lizards was spectacular..... only to fade out over the years. I was confounded why my captive bred and long term captive specimens didn't have the color, sheen, and character of wild caught ones.... You could just look at an adult specimen next to a wild caught.. both in excellent health.. and it was obvious which one was which...

Anyways.... enter 1993... I was lucky enough to acquire a beautiful brick red wild caught Male Gargoyle gecko.... I mean this thing was RED...... three years later, he was a muddy brown color..... I was in the early stages of developing my crested gecko diet at the time, and started including natural sources of Carotenoids for their potential color enhancing, as well as nutrient values..... long story short, two years later, after loosing track of this male in my large colony... I pulled him out of a cage and couldn't believe what I saw.. he was the same gecko I remembered seeing the day I first laid eyes on him.....

So what am I saying here.... ? Carotenoids have more value than just color enhancement. The nutritional value of these compounds is just beginning to be understood. I think that using these natural compounds in captive specimens is only giving the specimen a chance to be what it was meant to be... something we might never know in our typical captive conditions and diets that do not contain these important nutrients....

Allen

I referenced a few links of interest within the article, (click the orange words) For more info on these wonderful compounds, just use google

 

[Anthony Caponetto]

I have to back Allen up on this one. I started using his calcium product for my crested geckos several years ago (because it seems to stick to crickets better/longer), but when I started getting into leopards, I went with other calcium products that were recommended by leopard gecko people. Some of those products led to slight MBD (I'm sure I was probably messing up somewhere) and some seemed to work fine when used in conjunction with other products...usually one for dusting and another product in the calcium dish. After talking to Allen, I decided to try his product with my leopards and I've had great results in terns of breeding results and I've never seen any signs of MBD. Just FYI, we leave it in the calcium dish and dust their prey with it, so that's all we use...no having to use two different supplements.

As far as the color "enhancement", it's definitely not an artificial thing. The geckos have to possess the genetics for a particular color or that color will never show up on the gecko, no matter how much of these pigments you put in their diet.

Here are a couple examples that clearly demonstrate that...

1. I was really concerned that my "high white" super snows would start getting traces of color in the white area due to these pigments...this is something that concerned me so much, that I almost decided not to use it! Well, it's been over a year now and my super snows are still as white as anything you'll ever see.

2. Tangerine color is another great example. I have some gorgeous SHTCT/B and Sunglows that I got when I first started getting into leos. While they're nice, they don't have the red hues associated with the more "extreme" tangerine lines developed by well known breeders like Kelli, Urban Gecko, Dan the Fireman, etc. Even with Allen's calcium formula, that first group of geckos have never exhibited the reddish color that the extreme tangerine lines do. Just like the super snows, this is because the genetics just aren't there and therefore those geckos' skin simply isn't capable of exhibiting this color. I'll spare you all the talk of erythrophores, xanthophores, etc., but what I'm saying basically points to a physical limitation due to each gecko's genetics.

To be honest, I don't really notice much of a difference (if any) in younger geckos. However, what I HAVE noticed is that Allen's stuff will keep your geckos looking good, even as adults. I'm sure everyone has seen a brightly colored leo's color turn to *edited* after the first breeding season. That drives me absolutely nuts and fortunately, Allen's stuff is a great way to combat this. Back to the point of this whole post (paprika). It would probably achieve the same effect, but I don't think the geckos would go for it, due to the taste.

To echo what Allen said above, I don't really think of it as "artificial" enhancement...if fact, I honestly think it's more natural that my geckos have these naturally occuring pigments included in their diet.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

First of all, I appreciate you inputs Anthony and Allen. It's great to see you posting here! I agree with much of what you have posted about carotenes and other pigment enhancers, but what do we REALLY know about the percentages of these Carotenoids in the 'natural' diet of Leopard Geckos in the wild? Most of the W/C specimens have very little (if any) orange color naturally, and crickets and mealworms are not a natural diet for them.

[puts on mod hat] I would like to caution you however... this is NOT the forum for advertising your products. [/takes off mod hat]

 

[Allen Repashy]

Wow.... you deleted that post I spend so much time working on? I spent nearly an hour working up that post, and I thought it had a lot of good information that would be eye opening. I did not write it as an advertisement and am not sure how it was considered as such. I did not even name my products or promote them in any way. I only used a reference to my product's development to provide an example of wild caught vs. captive specimens.. I have no idea what Anthony posted because I never saw his post...
Just because I make supplements doesn't mean everything I say is to promote them. I do think my post was a general contribution to understanding nutrition and Carotenoids. I hope you reconsider my post. I will go away now.

Allen Repashy

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The GF Administration has given the OK to undelete the posts, Allen and Anthony. I'm sorry it ruffled your feathers... I can understand why it might. We take a democratic approach and vote on questionable posts.

I think all your hard work and the information in your posts is very worthwhile, and could stimulate some great dialogue here on the forum.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

[Anthony Caponetto]

Just to be clear, I don't sell Allen's supplements, so I have nothing to gain from this...unless he decides to write me a multi-million dollar endorsement check. lol

Also, is it against the rules to mention supplements by name?

Granted, we usually don't have the developer of a supplement on a forum talking about their own supplements, but I don't think we should hold it against Allen. I know Allen pretty well and knowing how busy he is, I think it's really cool that he'll actually take 10-15 minutes out of his day to come and post on the forums.

 

[OSUgecko]

I didn't think the posts sounded like an advertisement. Lots of people talk about products on this forum. I also don't think there's anything wrong with gutloading crickets with carotenoids. Caretenoids have practically zero toxicity issues and are vitamin A precursors... crucial for healthy eyes, skin, and many other bodily functions.

I use carrots to help supplement my feeder insects. Can't say that I've noticed that much of a difference in my reptile's body coloration, but it very well might in certain animals. Nutritional deficiencies often affect skin/hair color in many different species. Who's to say that carotenoids might not be a "essential reptile nutrient" that some of our captive bred insect populations lack due to their artificial diets and environments?

 

[Allen Repashy]

Thanks Marcia!

Sorry I got my "feathers ruffled".... I understand I walk a fine line when talking about nutrition because my views could be seen as biased because I formulate and sell products. I really do just enjoy sharing information, and think this is a great topic because of how little is known about these wonderful compounds.

Cheers, Allen

 

[dprince]

I agree with Anthony - there is a limitation to what any enhancement supplement can do (synthetic or natural), based on genetics. It's like people - you can't just give a person an enhancement pill or powder or the like, and have them looking like a model, right? It's based on genetics.

I personally use Rep-Cal calcium and Herptivite (which has beta carotene in it, aka precurser for vitamin A) for direct supplementation for the geckos. In my gutload (which I mix myself), I use Vionate, 10 grain brain, and carrots for moisture.

I can't say for sure what the "color enhancement" qualities of this product are in relation to others I've used........honestly, I've had geckos of certain morphs look completely faded out after breeding, and others of that same morph that look fantastic. :main_huh: What I *can* say is that I have used other calcium/supplementation products in the past (not Allen's stuff ) that didn't yield as good of results in other areas, such as preventing eyelid deformities, hatchlings with MBD, etc. I'm personally really very happy with the Rep-Cal line of products. (This is not a knock against or promotion of any particular product - just my own personal experience. Hope it helps. )

 

[dprince]

Thanks Marcia!

Sorry I got my "feathers ruffled".... I understand I walk a fine line when talking about nutrition because my views could be seen as biased because I formulate and sell products. I really do just enjoy sharing information, and think this is a great topic because of how little is known about these wonderful compounds.

Cheers, Allen

Allen, I personally (and others too, I'm sure) are very happy to see you sharing your vast knowledge and years of experience here. It warms my heart to see people like you with your great reputation willing to share this kind of information. Thank you!!

 

[Allen Repashy]

Thanks for the kind words Debbie,

BTW, Eye deformities in leopard geckos are more likely a result of over supplementation of calcium than lack of any vitamin. Calcium in excess of 2-3% of total diet on a Dry Matter Basis acts as a strong binder, which inhibits the absorption of nutrients, particularly the fat soluble vitamins such as vitamin A.

Vitamin A deficiency is most likely the culprit for eye deficiency. Some vitamin supplements do not contain any Vitamin A, and only contain beta carotene. I don't agree with this and feel that having a base level of preformed vitamin A and backing it up with lots of Carotenoids, is a better way to go.

Different species have different abilities to convert Carotenoids to Preformed Vitamin A. Obviously leopard geckos can do it, but the efficiency of how they do it is still unknown. There is absolutely no reason to not have any Preformed Vitamin A in a supplement IMHO. It takes very high levels at 10 times the recommended dosage at a minimum, to show toxicity.

It has been proven that the big Vitamin A toxicity scare of more than ten years ago was completely unfounded and false...Documented cases of Vitamin A toxicity are almost unkonwn in herps today, but Vitamin A deficiency is still a common problem. Today, we still have products that are based on these outdated claims, and I feel we are lucky that some species are able to convert carotenoids to Preformed A efficiently enough to at least get by.

Many people who keep leopard geckos today, free feed calcium in a dish all the time. I believe that this could be a major factor in producing geckos with eye problems and urge anyone using this method and having problems to set up a comparison group for study. Adding more vitamins is not the answer because if they can't be absorbed, you are doing nothing good.

Allen

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Many people who keep leopard geckos today, free feed calcium in a dish all the time. I believe that this could be a major factor in producing geckos with eye problems and urge anyone using this method and having problems to set up a comparison group for study. Adding more vitamins is not the answer because if they can't be absorbed, you are doing nothing good.

I hope I won't get myself into trouble here for not staying on the topic of 'color enhancers', but I'd like to pick your brain on the topics of supplementation in general. (BTW, my vet says in almost 20 years of being a herp vet he has NEVER seen a case of hypervitaminosis A or D in a leopard gecko.

What I wanted to bounce off you is, that I have spoken with a few biologists/herpetologists and they have a 'theory' about eyelid deformities in Eublepharids. I'm not sure I buy into it or not, but it makes for some interesting conversation.

The theory is, that since most reptiles do not have eyelids, that Eubelpharids are in a sort-of 'evolutionary process' where they are either developing eyelids or losing them. Eyelid deformities are quite common in eyelid geckos from what I understand. My vet, Kenneth Harkewicz BioED, VMD, says that Vitamin A deficiency would have a direct impact on the development of the eye, but not necessarily the eyelid, since it is actually part of the actual facial skin structure.

What do you think?

 

[Allen Repashy]

Great question Marica,

There is definitely a difference between an eye deformity and an eyelid deformity. I am not a leopard gecko breeder and haven't worked with them for many years. You are right, I can't see Vitamin A having a lot to do with a lid deformity rather than an eye one. Vitamin A DOES however have a significant impact on skin development, and an eye lid isn't much more than a piece of skin on a lidded gecko...
As we know, Vitamin A in the form of "Retin-A" is commonly used to treat Acne.. it forces our skin to "shed" and produce new fresh skin... Vitamin A deficiency in reptiles is most usually first seen in shedding issues.... not necessarily stuck dry sheds, but more likely sticky stuck wet sheds..
Back to eyes.... The eye deformities I was referring to are what are commonly seen as "small eye" "swollen eye" or misshapen eye... This can cause the eyelid to look deformed, but it is actually because the eye its self is shrunken in or not right in some way. If the eye is normal, and only the lid is an issue, then likely Vitamin A would be less of a guilty party... but again, the lid is skin, and Vitamin A has a significant effect on skin development.
Your evolutionary theory is a very interesting one. One sure way to get a baseline for this would be to survey wild caught populations, or shipments... of which we don't see much of these days....
I have looked at literally thousands and thousands of bearded dragons and Varanids though, and never seen eyelid problems in these species, though they are quite different from geckos.

I agree with you that hypervitamintosis is VERY rare in most reptiles. I have worked extensively with Dr. Scott Stahl, who has done lots of analysis on my "crash test geckos" that I submit to him to to help me determine proper vitamin/mineral/nutrient inclusion ratios. He is a Herp specialist and says he has personally never seen a case of Hypervitamintosis in reptiles from A or D. He however, does see a lot of cases of Vitamin A deficiencyin herps, particularly in chameleons, because many people use a supplement that does not contain any Preformed Vitamin A. and it seem Chameleons are not as efficient as some other species at converting beta carotene to usable A.

Unfortunately, folklore becomes fact in just a few years time, and people just go by what other people tell them.. The Vitamin A scare of the early nineties, which proved to be unfounded, has caused many keepers of even today, to think that it is a bad thing and should not be supplemented. There are so many care sheets and people just regurgitating what other people say, that there is still a fear that it is easy to overdose on vitamin A... Even though, as you and I both know.... Vets rarely, if ever see it..... while Vitamin A deficiency is a common occurrence.

here is a little reference:

http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=17&cat=1796&articleid=3027

http://www.azeah.com/Care-Sheets.asp?id=116

I am not saying go dump a ton of Preformed A on your geckos, but responsible supplementation with acceptable levels of vitmain A. in the standard 10/1 ratio of A to D, has to my knowledge never caused Hypervitamintosis in reptiles.

All for now..... Allen

 

[Allen Repashy]

Another thing that comes to mind when thinking of deformities of any kind is incubation temperatures. Do you see a correlation between high temps and these problems... Do you see it more when you try to make males?

Allen