Petshop Workers - BUSTED!

[M_surinamensis]

First of all, most 'pet stores'

One of those distinctions I was talking about, informed criticism being different than random pot shots... the inclusion of modifying language. "Most" or "Some" change the scope of a statement and allow for the existence of exceptions.

The OP didn't include any.

So why would anyone even expect pet store employees to know anything about the animals they sell? Why would anyone even BUY a pet from a store that specializes in pet food and supplies?

I can't really speak to its current state, but my exposure to the training materials of the big box stores caused me to regard it as being on a level about equal with that found in most books. You know me well enough to know that I was looking to find fault with them... and they weren't perfect, but they were adequate. How well any individual employee absorbs and utilizes the material is another variable, but the tools were (are?) there to generate competence. Exceptional or experienced individuals would find them to be pretty basic, there was nothing in there which would teach someone like you anything you didn't already know... but they did contain a lot of the answers to a lot of the threads started by a lot of the users of websites I have frequented. What does it eat, how do I heat it, what's the deal with UVB kinds of stuff were all covered.

As to the why... convenience, impulse, price, lack of awareness of alternative sources, just because... same reasons anyone would buy any animal from any other source really. They rarely carry exceptionally high quality stock or rarities, but there isn't always a compelling reason not to make a purchase from them either (for a lot of people).

During my brief time with both big companies, the animal loss numbers from all sources were under five percent. I think I signed NDAs that should prevent me from revealing that, but what the hell. That's in-store death or illness, customer returns covered by the guarantee period, animals let loose, stolen or accidentally given away (feeder insects and fish especially required constant inventory adjustment). That's number of animals, with most of the losses happening with the live feeders. Individual stores could be slightly above or below that mark and short term losses could spike higher in individual locations for a variety of reasons but on the whole, they don't do too badly. There is always room for improvement, but their P&P at the time was reasonably successful.

I'd also categorize some of the animal issues which are seen as having a root cause with the suppliers. Which is a sticky topic, since on the one hand the retail fronts are perpetuating the negative practices of some suppliers by supporting those businesses but on the other hand there are some tangible realities that come into play surrounding the topics of volume and cost. As you said, that model isn't really making money by selling animals, the animals are there to provide a reason for consumers to buy the supplies. Going strictly by the sales figures of live animals, many stores actually operate at a loss on their livestock (when factoring profit against floor space, employee hours, investment in materials and other operational costs like electricity) and then make up for it through the sales of supplies. Most vendors can't supply sufficient volume to satisfy the needs of their globe spanning stores and won't meet their proposed pricing schemes.

It ends up being a question of how many unsuccessful animals are justifiable, which is a bit subjective. I see four and a half percent, compare it to the kinds of losses experienced by importers, different kinds of breeding operations and the success rate of end consumers and believe it's... okay. Could be better but given where the bulk of those losses occur it's within the kinds of numbers that I'd anticipate. You may see those same numbers and think that one animal in twenty is too many, that it is cause for dramatic changes. Even if our positions are in conflict with one another, I believe they're close enough so that it can be treated as a difference of opinion, rather than as a clash of zero sum absolutes.

I dunno, it's a "no brainer" for me. Sorry if this offends anyone.

You and I have slightly divergent opinions... and there was that infamous disagreement about which approach was appropriate for correcting negative scenarios*... but you inherently allow for exceptions. You make remarks that apply to very specific subjects while excluding others. "(This pet shop) did (this thing) which I think is (judgment)." is nowhere near the same kind of statement as "Lets bust those pet shop people once and for all" You have an informed opinion, backed by meaningful knowledge and experiences and you're just as likely to acknowledge something positive as to condemn something negative. You're not going to offend anyone with reasonableness.


*in a way, you're sort of responsible for me using this site. If we hadn't had that knock down drag out, then I wouldn't have been named ("Seam-ASS!") in that early thread and I probably never would have registered over here. I thought the whole thread was worth a chuckle, but obviously some others took it rather more seriously than I did. I sometimes wonder if it is still archived somewhere here, just hidden from view.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

"Most" or "Some" change the scope of a statement and allow for the existence of exceptions.

Yes, it does. To clarify, I stated that most pet stores we are familiar with are big-box chains. The two biggest ones are run by corporations who's executives have little interest in the proper housing and husbandry of the reptiles the stores sell. In fact, the State of California requires care sheets to be given for every animal sold, and the major big-box store has the same care sheet for their bearded dragons as they do for leopard geckos. I can't make an opinion on how they care for their fish, birds, hamsters, and other small 'pets'.

This does not mean that every one of these stores doesn't care about their animals, but they are at the mercy of what the corporate office dictates and employees have little, if any, say in how the animals are kept, fed, and cared for. After a sale, they offer little or no support for the animals or their new keepers. There is little comparison between buying a gecko from a store that specializes in pet food and supplies, and buying from a breeder who has a vested interest in the animals they have bred.

I wouldn't have been named ("Seam-ASS!") in that early thread and I probably never would have registered over here.

LOL, I didn't name you 'Seam-ass'... it was "Shame-Ass"! Does this mean you came here to GF to stalk and bully me? (Just kidding, Seamus... ) I think after all these years we are past all that.

 

[Gem]

My word! I logged on today and really never expected the reaction, but I can see why I got it.

Firstly, I apologise profoundly for generalising here. Of course there are going to be loads of people out there who are brilliant and know exactly what they are talking about when it comes to working in pet stores and such. I did not mean it that way (and clearly never thought when wording it!)

I was simply fascinated by the stories of advice that people have been given, and wanted to hear more. And where I reside - the only places that are eager to dish out the advice is in the petstore. Nothing else. I did not mean to offend anybody and I know better than to generalise.

I really just wanted to bust the myths that people put forth. I find it interesting.

I suppose 'Myths - BUSTED' would have been more appropriate in hindsight.

For example - one petshop worker told me that a vivarium for Leos needs to be between 60 and 80F whereas other sources tell me 80 - 90. Another person in a different store has advised me to feed waxworms to my geckos over mealworms.

It definitely gets confusing sometimes.

And when saying - what crazy advice have you been given over the years? - I do not think that in anyway suggests that I have kept geckos for years! I don't claim to have done that. I never did - my geckos are new - hence the reason I was looking to straighten out some of the advice that circulates.

Okay, apologies - lesson learned. I never meant to criticise anybody (pet store worker/owner or not) who knows their stuff, although I can completely see where everyone is coming from.

 

[M_surinamensis]

The two biggest ones are run by corporations who's executives have little interest in the proper housing and husbandry of the reptiles the stores sell.

Depending on how executives are defined, that's probably true. Or close enough to it. There are people in the corporate and regional structures beyond the store level who are supposed to fulfill the duty of oversight on such matters though. Or were, anyway... there may have been restructuring in the years since I was privy to any of the inner workings.

Petsmart had a "Vice President of Specialty" specialty being the name for the in-store department handling fish, reptiles, amphibians, birds, small mammals and feeders. There was some overlap or intersection with other departments where the associated products were concerned, of course. The VP of Specialty was a sort of combination informational resource and corporate buyer. He interacted directly with suppliers, produced amended availability lists for stores to order from, set live animal policies and could be emailed or called by store managers if they felt a need to address animal questions.

Petco, at the time, had regional "Companion Animal Coordinators" who performed many of the same essential functions, but with multiple individuals assigned to various areas of the country. I found them to be a bit more involved and flexible, but one consequence of that may have been a lack of unified, company wide uniformity.

The primary failing that I found with these arrangements was human fallibility. I was only able to meet a few of the individuals to hold these respective positions and was never able to make detailed observations about their job or their credentials, but I very much got the impression that there were two ways to obtain the role; have some substantial experience with animal care and a little training as a corporate buyer or have some substantial experience as a corporate buyer and a little experience with animal care. Shy of having both backgrounds present at equally high levels of capability in a single individual, each option had some pitfalls. The buyer first individuals were not that useful for addressing animal concerns that arose from the storefronts and the animal first individuals didn't have the negotiation skills necessary to enforce quality control from the wholesale suppliers.

In fact, the State of California requires care sheets to be given for every animal sold, and the major big-box store has the same care sheet for their bearded dragons as they do for leopard geckos.

Assuming Petco is the more established one in California, what with the San Diego origin point and corporate offices, they have two different care sheets on their website as two page .pdfs Although they also then have general sheets for "Arid Lizard." The sheets... aren't great. Though I have rarely seen a true care sheet that is, they usually don't get good until they become care articles or care booklets or care encyclopedias.

I have no idea what Petsmart is using anymore. I couldn't find them on the website and the last time I was working there, the reptile care sheets that could be supplied to customers (rather than employee training materials) consisted of a three ring binder with about three hundred photocopied pages on different species, each credited to one Mister Ron Tremper of Silver City Reptiles. They were a bit dated, since I think at that point Silver City Reptiles had been out of business for around a decade. I'm kind of guessing they phased those out by now. It was a pretty good binder though, all kinds of interesting stuff in there written with almost no sense of common arrangement to the information from sheet to sheet.

I can't make an opinion on how they care for their fish, birds, hamsters, and other small 'pets'.

My personal observations of current local store conditions for the fish would label it as "adequate, considering." I have some issues with the design of the CAS or MaRS systems they usually use and no particular love of Seagrest Farms, the primary supplier for live fish used by the stores in New England. Though it's been some time since I wandered in and had a good, hard look at things. I usually find as many or more complaints about the retail operations side of things as I do the animals. Improperly faced shelves, unswept floors, clutter on working surfaces, employees sitting on a ladder using their cell phones to send text messages on the sales floor kind of stuff.

Mediocrity. Something they should strive to be better than, but nothing in particular to condemn.

they are at the mercy of what the corporate office dictates and employees have little, if any, say in how the animals are kept, fed, and cared for.

Nobody ever took issue with anything I chose to do. If I deviated from Policy and Procedure or moved away from the standards outlined by the corporate directives it was never an issue. The most I ever got was a request for an explanation and subsequent instructions to carry on as I saw fit. Once in awhile I'd get a request to write it up and email it to other stores. I recognize that my experiences as an employee may not be identical to what others see, but I was basically left alone regardless of which corporate suits happened to tour the store.

LOL, I didn't name you 'Seam-ass'... it was "Shame-Ass"! Does this mean you came here to GF to stalk and bully me? (Just kidding, Seamus... ) I think after all these years we are past all that.

To be honest I came to see what kind of hubbub had gotten the lemming all riled up, she was bouncing around and yapping like one of those excitable little rat-dogs celebrities with eating disorders carry around in their purse. I know there was some unfortunate fallout from all that, but I found the whole thing to be equal parts wit and amusing snark. I'm a man who can appreciate a good pointing and laughing though, others seemed to take it all much more seriously. I'm also well aware of my ability to be abrasive, so it wasn't some unexpected shock to my tender sensibilities. I'm not really sure I have tender sensibilities. Not that kind anyway.

 

[LeoMerlin]

The best way to learn about your animals is to have done your own research. If you know of others that have the same animal as you then you can ask for their advice. It's not a good idea to start giving grief to those who work in pet shops when they're just trying to help you out. Sure some may be pushing for sells and such but generally they want what is best for your animal and your happiness as a customer. It's always a good idea to keep on learning new things about your animals, even if you've had them awhile. Like me, I have horses, a dog, and three cats, and of course now my leopard gecko. I've been around animals my whole life but that doesn't mean I know everything about them. You learn things as you go along. When you ask for advice, you take it, then verify it later if you feel the need to by another source. But one should always be polite to those who work in pet shops because they're there to help you.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Seamus, a bit has changed. There are things I question at the reptile level of things, but right now through showing my superiors my knowledge of herps I've been placed as "captain" to small mammals and birds - an area where I know the basics and generalities, with hopes of me being more well rounded. This is someone who, though per our store manager was not demoted, has gone from Pet Products Manager to Pet Care Lead as our store manager saw the move as an ability to further develop my leadership while whipping our "specialty" area into shape with aid from our Pet Care Manager.

Our Care Guides are going to be going through an overhaul soon, but yes Marcia they do tend to cater to the products. There are plenty of things I just scratch my head at and laugh. FWIW, our herps come from Sandfire Dragon Ranch. Vets are suppose to be developing habitat and feeding standards too, yet the info tag for leopard geckos shows them eating prepared foods that include fruit.

Seamus, I still see fish boxes with that very logo you mention. The retail side of complaints are still there too; an issue I had during my 7 month stint as Pet Products Manager. An issue that frustrated me enough as to be a small part of my moving to pet care.

Where I work is not perfect, and as Seamus hinted, there are a few there just doing enough to get by - mediocrity. But there are a few of us there like myself that give a darn, even if I was making $18/hr with the City of Las Cruces 2 years ago and now only seeing a mere 55% of that pay now.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

But there are a few of us there like myself that give a darn

YAAAYY!!!!

 

[fl_orchidslave]

If only there were more who gave a darn.

 

[TokayKeeper]

The only problem with it is that giving such attention makes achieving the timeline goals of required tasks difficult. I spent 4 hours last week on my first official day over in pet care scrubbing caked on algae off the tops of our inlets and outlets on our aquaria wall. In 4 hours I got....7 finished and finished is like 95% clear of algae. I will pick up in speed once I'm more familiar with where things are and how to manage my time much more wisely between customers. It's basically my old Museum Naturalist job, but with a retail element and much more strict deadlines for cleaning and feeding. At the museum I could clean and feed after opening, which afforded me the time to interact and educate patrons. Doing so from a retail side equates to not meeting set standards of productivity and not fulfilling my duties of customer service. That very same customer service that Seamus mentioned...the kind where even here I have to choose my words wisely as I've actually directed customers here or have through talking found out customers are privy to this forum. Somewhere in all that rambling could have been a paragraph break, but WTH, I'll have a "run-on paragraph".

Back to setting up hatchling tubs. Normal, het for normal #3 is out of egg while I wait for coco coir to rehydrate. **Shameless plug...Points to Eggs Incubating under my info...it's the NORMALS pair under the mitratus.**

 

[Starwild]

Frankly, I've been given bad advice by pet store workers, vets, people at reptile shows and people on the internet. Bad advice is bad advice no matter the source, and no matter what the source's profession or how long they've been doing it. I think we should focus on education for all, and ongoing education at that. Standards change the more we learn, and it could very well be what we think we know about animal care today will be completely overhauled 20 years from now. I'd rather not set myself up by calling out others' flaws - working with people is better than working against them.

I couldn't handle the kind of pet shop horrors people must see. It would break my heart.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

What works well for one person may not work for someone else, but it doesn't mean they were wrong. Geckos don't all behave in the same manner, and even geckos change from their normal habits from time to time. Home environments are different and here's many variables that experienced keepers can quickly make adjustments for.

 

[Gem]

And that was going to be my next point - it's really been trial and error when it comes to taking advice. Having somebody from the store down the road tell me that I must cut the heads off my mealworms is fine - but I have learned to take it with a pinch of salt, because although one of my geckos will only eat beheaded mealies, the other would never eat if I did that - he only likes things that wriggle.

And so in truth, the fella in the shop was kind of right when it comes to one of my geckos, and it was trial and error with the other.

With regards to waxworm feeding though I'm glad that I found out not to feed them as a staple diet as soon as I did - because they were snapping them up like it was nobody's business.

I think my point was supposed to be that I would never dream of giving advice on something before I've had first hand experience of it myself. I wouldn't want people to be misinformed and I would always make sure that they knew it came from my experience and so therefore might not be exact for them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I would never dream of giving advice on something before I've had first hand experience of it myself.

This is sound advice!

 

[Kotori]

I think my point was supposed to be that I would never dream of giving advice on something before I've had first hand experience of it myself.

:main_thumbsup:

When I got my Leo (From a rescue) and I went to the local petstore, I was lucky enough to talk to someone who has two herself, so she was able to tell me exactly what to do. But even if she didn't have first-hand advice, I would've listened, but double-checked it.

 

[LeoMerlin]

Just keep researching, it's your best option. When you ask for advice, you asked for it. Don't give the person a hard time when they're just trying to help you out. There is bad advice that's given, either from lack of true research, or lack of any real interest in the question/topic you have been looking for. It's always good to try to be on the better side of people. Especially when you're looking into getting more information on proper animal care. If you don't find the people at the pet store trustworthy of the information you require, I'd go to a different pet store or seek a veterinarian's opinion. Hope this helps.