proving genitics and deformed eye lids

[brandy101010]

A while ago I posted This Thread... http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=7860

Since then, I have paired this girl with a proven het bell male. So far I have two hatchlings from her. Both are normal and both have eyelid deformities.
I realize that I have a 50/50 chance of getting normals from bell to het pairing and I may have not have hit the odds yet.

The most important thing to me here is the deformities. I have had babies from the male used before and none of them have had any deformties. All healthy perfect 10's. So I am ruling him out as a problem. My incubator fluctuates very little and these are the first babies this year to have any problems so I am ruling that out mostly but not completely.

So I am thinking the mother is carrying the gene for the deformed eyelids. OR I need to adjust my suplements.

I suplement all my geckos the same except breeding females get calcium dusted on ther food at every feeding instead of every other feeding. they get the vitamin suplement once a week just like all the others. I'm thinking that every gecko is different just like every human is different so just because my method for suplementing works well for my other girls does not mean I'm not messing up this girls system. Just a thought. I don't know what I should try changing. Thats why I'm asking for your opinions.

If infact she is carrying a gene that causes deformities there is nothing I can do other then not breed her anymore which I plan on not breeding her any more anyway. Has there been any study on how eyelid deformities come to be? If it is caused by a gene how does that gene work geneticly?
If anyone has any info or advice on this subject please chime in.
Thanks!

 

[lytlesnake]

I don't know if there have been any studies on eyelid deformities on humans or geckos... I think you're pretty much on the cutting edge of that research. Very interesting. I was just talking to a leo breeder about tail tip kinks. He said that rainwaters and patternless will have a hard knot where the kink is, but that enigmas sometimes have a soft kink that is visible one day and not the next. That doesn't necessarily mean it's genetic though, it could just be a result of the different body types of various lines of geckos.

 

[Stitch]

I have a baby gecko hatch with a crooked spine, almost like a question mark. He said that the spine was from a temperature spike. This gecko also has eye notches, but the vet did not necessarily say that the temp spike caused that as well. We were more focused on the spine. This gecko has no problems shuting it's eyes, where as I have to take one of it's sibling to the vet because he is leaving one eye shut and he has no eye notches.

I have only got eye notches from a specific pairing. I paired the father up with another female to outcross and I have gotten no eye notches.

Just to give you my two cents.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

There very well be some validity to this, and we definitely need research! I would tend to agree that if a certain gecko (or pairing) continually produces eyelid deformities it could be genetic, but I am still more inclined to lean toward congenital problems... whether it's in the mother (supplementation?) during egg development, or even environmental during egg incubation. The eyes are among the last things to develop for an embryo.

I remember having a rash of eyelid deformities over a period of 4-6 weeks, and literally every baby that hatched had the problem. I got so discouraged that I didn't even look forward to looking in the incubator. Then, as suddenly as it came on, the problem disappeared. This kind of occurence surely isn't genetic.

 

[DAWNoftheLEO]

There very well be some validity to this, and we definitely need research!

I agree!!

 

[Franks_Geckos]

I had an occurrence this year where about 8 of 10 hatchlings from two females (clutchmates, no less) that were paired back to their father developed eye infections shortly (a few days) after hatching. The females in question also had an extremely low egg fertility rate this year. The hatchlings would get swelling under the eyelid and it would close. I treated them with an opthalmic solution and wet q-tips. I would wipe out the eye until the (clear gel-like) buildup was gone and the eye could open. It worked on most of them. It didn't matter if the hatchlings were albino or normal they developed the infection in one or both eyes. No other females paired with this male have ever produced hatchlings that developed this problem or any problem for that matter. Most of the hatchlings from these 2 females also grew much slower than other hatchlings that hatched in the same period. This could be due to the fact that the eye infections affected their vision and they did not eat as regularly as they should have as hatchlings, or it could be another issue that may be genetic. The 2 females that produced these hatchlings have always appeared to be in perfect health, but if their supplementation was not adequate or if they simply needed to be paired to a different male to outcross, I will have to determine by breeding them to a different male next year. The problem will then be apparent if it continues. As much as I am afraid of having to treat more eye infections or euthanizing hatchlings that are not able to survive in their own, I think that the study will be worth it due to the knowledge that will be gained and can be applied in the future.

 

[bro paul]

I'm curious also. I think most, if not all of us, have had to deal with slight deformities from time to time, but I still can't think of an example where it clearly seemed to be genetic (in my breedings). It can definitely appear to be genetic when it's the same pairing producing the problems. But, like others, I tend to think it's more related to supplementation in the individual breeding females.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

My theory, and only a theory based on experience and not anything scientific, is that some geckos do have an inherent problem with supplementation absorbtion and/or metabolism. Now, whether this inherent (genetic) trait carries on to the offspring, or if it is due to mal-absorbtion in the mother's metabolism that produces the congenital (non-genetic) problems in the offspring, remains unknown.

My theory was somewhat proven when I had a thermostat probe accident which caused some geckos to develop MBD literally overnight due to overheating, while others were unaffected. In the affected geckos, the parathyroid gland (controls calcium metabolism) became overactive thereby leaching the blood and bone calcium out of their bodies. The large percentage of geckos that developed this problem were Mack Snows.

So perhaps there are certain individual geckos, or morphs, that are genetically predisposed to have supplement absorption problems.

 

[brandy101010]

Thanks everyone for being so willing to share your experiences on this subject. I wish there were a way to know for sure what is causing this. If we all share our experiences and work together we could maybe figure this out one day. If only we could get some scientists into Leopard geckos to figure all this out for us! lol

Frank, I think it is a good thing to carry out your study. If you have the space,money, and time to devote to a study like this i'm sure it will help gecko breeders in the future. Thank you for taking this on!

Marcia, Your theory on supplementation is very interesting and is something I belive could be contributing to deformities a lot in leopard geckos. Thank you for your input!

If anyone else has experience with deformities in hatchlings fell free to post them here.
Thank you.

 

[acpart]

I imagine that eye deformities could have multiple causes. I have had 3 eye deformities in the last 2 years --2 cases of notched eyelids and one where one eye was bigger than the other. They were from 3 different females paired with 2 different males. The male that produced 2 of the eye deformities (who has since died) produced a total of 16 other babies without deformities.

Aliza

 

[IMacBevan]

I experienced this issue several years ago, when I switched supplements (both vitamin and calcium sources) and suddenly had a rash of hatchlings with eyelid issues. It didn't seem to matter who the sire and dam were as there was the odd one or two hatchlings in each group of clutches that had this issue.

My own personal opinion, based on my own observations, is that it is a supplementation issue and it can vary depending on the brand of supplements.

I'm not going to point the finger at any particular brand in a public forum, so please don't ask me to. I would suggest looking at your supplementation program first and make your changes there.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

My own personal opinion, based on my own observations, is that it is a supplementation issue and it can vary depending on the brand of supplements.

A few years ago, I switched from my usual supplement protocol (I use Rep-Cal products) to a new "all-in-one" product. For over a month, literally EVERY egg that was laid by any female failed. As soon as I switched back to my normal product, the problem disappeared.

I spoke to Dr. Daniel Wentz from Rep-Cal labs about it in detail, and his thoughts were that it is not necessarily the product itself (of course, he thinks their products are best!), but the change in products that could affect how the supplements are metabolized by the geckos, perhaps temporarily.

 

[IMacBevan]

My experience has been different than that. I too was using ReptiCal initially, then switched to another product based on some discussions with the manufacturer. The following season was when I had all the deformity issues, once they started showing up I switched back to my old protocol and the issue corrected itself towards the end of the season.

About 18 months or so ago, I was contacted by another supplementation company about trying their products. I decided to try their product and the two seasons since the switch I've had no deformities whatsoever.

When I searched the forums in regards to the initial issue I had, just about every person who had experienced this had been using one particular brand of Ca2 and Vitamins.

I should also state that it was a calcium supplement that could be purchased with or without D3/Vitamin A depending on whether the herps in question needed UVB exposure to synthesize/absorb Calcium correctly. As there are now several manufacturers doing this now, it may have something to do with presence or absence of D3/Vitamin A.

If I had to hazrd a guess, it would be that it might be a form of Vitamin A toxicity, but it is merely a hunch on my part with no concrete evidence.

Just my own two cents....