Question regarding 2 females

[OnlineGeckos]

I have a raptor female, 5 month old. I just introduced a 8 month jungle female to the 20 gal tank yesterday. The jungle is slightly larger, not much length wise but heavier. But the feisty one is the the raptor, as I've caught her snapping at the jungle when she was simply snuggling up and laying there. This happened a few times yesterday. As far as I can tell, the jungle has not bite back.

Do you guys think I should separate them right away, or give it a day or two to see if they get along? I really don't want to build another tank right now but I will if I have to. It's starting to appear that I have a friendly social jungle but a not so friendly raptor. As of this morning they were both laying in the moist hide together without a problem.

So, do I separate them now before anything bad happens, or wait another day or two to observe & see if they get along? Any suggestions and opinions welcome, thanks

 

[GeckoGathering]

home invader

I have a raptor female, 5 month old. I just introduced a 8 month jungle female to the 20 gal tank yesterday. The jungle is slightly larger, not much length wise but heavier. But the feisty one is the the raptor, as I've caught her snapping at the jungle when she was simply snuggling up and laying there. This happened a few times yesterday. As far as I can tell, the jungle has not bite back.

Do you guys think I should separate them right away, or give it a day or two to see if they get along? I really don't want to build another tank right now but I will if I have to. It's starting to appear that I have a friendly social jungle but a not so friendly raptor. As of this morning they were both laying in the moist hide together without a problem.

So, do I separate them now before anything bad happens, or wait another day or two to observe & see if they get along? Any suggestions and opinions welcome, thanks

You may not want to read this since most
will say, separate them.
But I enjoy "living together"
even if it does require more time, thought, and observation.
First off you did the "home invader" introduction.
Not good.
Raptor owns the condo.
Her TV, fridge, phone, etc.
Only you are the one to call it.
Your Time, money, geckos well being.
Take care. HJ​

 

[Wowoklol]

You could try re-decorating their environment as there may be slight territorial issues at play. If you re-arrange everything, maybe it will reset her boundaries and she wont be so fussy.

 

[OnlineGeckos]

You could try re-decorating their environment as there may be slight territorial issues at play. If you re-arrange everything, maybe it will reset her boundaries and she wont be so fussy.

Great idea, I'll try that today thank you. I did notice both of them like the same warm & moist hides, even though I have 2 of each setup for them. So I'm going to duplicate the hides I used so hopefully they stay in separate ones.

It's just funny that leos aren't supposed to be social, but the jungle female I got likes to go where the raptor goes heh.

Edit: I also just got a response back from the breeder I got the jungle from, she said the jungle was housed with 3 other females. So that may explain why she's more friendly with other leos, where as the raptor female may have had her own space before.

 

[M_surinamensis]

It's just funny that leos aren't supposed to be social, but the jungle female I got likes to go where the raptor goes heh.

That's not social interaction. That's what happens when you put two animals of the same species with the same needs and the same instincts in a small environment. One best warm hide, one best moist hide, one good cool spot, one place near the food dish, one corner used for defecation. It's not being friendly, it's competing for limited resources.

Did you quarantine the new one after obtaining it, before housing them together?

 

[OnlineGeckos]

That's not social interaction. That's what happens when you put two animals of the same species with the same needs and the same instincts in a small environment. One best warm hide, one best moist hide, one good cool spot, one place near the food dish, one corner used for defecation. It's not being friendly, it's competing for limited resources.

Did you quarantine the new one after obtaining it, before housing them together?

The jungle female actually follows the other around, so I think it's a tad more than just using the same spots. I watched her yesterday following the raptor's exact steps when she moved heh. I'm not suggesting she's being "social" really, but perhaps she was scared or simply didn't mind being with other leos. The breeder I got her from told me she was housed with 3 other females, so that may explain it.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Did you quarantine the new one or not?

I think it's a tad more than just using the same spots.

Why do people like you ask questions if you're not going to pay attention to any answers except the ones you want to hear?

 

[OnlineGeckos]

Did you quarantine the new one or not?



Why do people like you ask questions if you're not going to pay attention to any answers except the ones you want to hear?

Because quarantine has nothing to do with my question? The answer is yes, but that doesn't change the question one bit does it?

Also I posted the question before the breeder had responded letting me know that the jungle raptor did in fact grow up with 3 other females. I think that's a relevant piece of information, which would explain why the jungle is used to being with other leos (and has not bite back), while the raptor may be feisty because she's used to being alone. I still got to hear back from the other breeder regarding the housing history of the raptor female.

Anyways thanks for the suggestion above on re-arranging things. I duplicated the hides they both like in the same position and location. They were both in the same spot sleeping when I got home, so we'll see how this goes. :main_thumbsup:

 

[M_surinamensis]

I think that's a relevant piece of information

It's not.

The thing here is... you asked a question because you didn't know. So when you refute the educated and correct answers you are given, using the phrase "I think" to preface your statements as if that added weight to their validity is... irritating. If your thinking was up to the task of answering the question, you wouldn't have asked it to begin with.

Your attempts to explain what you have witnessed are all coming from an empathetic perspective. You're trying to explain gecko behavior based on the reasons humans would display similar actions. The two species do not think in similar ways except on the most basic level. The motivations which can be applied to one are totally irrelevant to the other. They aren't friendly, they don't "get used to things" in the manner you're suggesting, there's no trust between them which would motivate one to follow another in an unfamiliar environment and they don't consciously make decisions to alter their behaviors. So previously having been housed with a group doesn't make any difference whatsoever. It's all instinctive and it's all a set of behaviors that developed in a species where other members of it are mostly competition (and very rarely something to mate with). Their dominance displays and territorial behaviors are not as obvious as an immediate fight to the death, but the eventual outcome when two animals cannot escape a common space and are intolerant of one another is the same. It just takes longer to manifest.

If you want to ignore the answers to the question you asked, because it's not what you wanted to hear, because it's inconvenient or because it conflicts with your incomprehensible need to treat your geckos as if they were puppies then by all means, follow what you think. I'll be sure to remember you and avoid the future thread where you're asking what to do about your gecko that refuses to eat or how to treat bite marks and missing toes.

Quarantine, on the other hand, is relevant. Although I'm torn between asking for details of how you handled it and just writing you off as a waste of time. I've about had it with people who need to be beaten in their thick skulls before they're willing to be educated, it's three times the effort to communicate half the information.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Oh come on Surinam...stop anthropomorphizing.

 

[OnlineGeckos]

Sorry I didn't mean to offend you really, was just that everybody assumes you don't know anything. Yes quarantine was applied, but the problem was the shared environment and how these 2 leos behaved. One is feisty, the other is tame and doesn't even bite back when bitten. So yes I'm most likely going to have to separate them.

Thanks for your help.

 

[justindh1]

I don't think whether the geckos have been quarantined or not is going to help answer the OP questions and I don't really see how it is relevant but that is me. Many leopard gecko owners have kept multiple geckos in the same tank without any issues what so ever. If an individual wants to keep an careful eye on the co-inhabitants then that's their choice.

Sometimes geckos just don't get along with each other and need to be separated and thats what the OP might have to do. If they start skirmishing with each other often or one isn't eating as much then I would separate them. You won't typical see them fight but you will notice the marks. Make sure you watch them during feeding time so you know that one isn't getting a majority of the food. I hope things work out.

Semus, your abundant knowledge of leopard geckos amongst others things is obvious. I know your a very well educated man but sometimes I think you also take it too far to show your intellectual superiority over others. That just may be the level your brain works at no matter what. I do like your brute honesty as well but sometimes the way it's gone about makes wanting to take into account what you say not such a high priority.

Sometimes there are multiple ways of doing things with none of them being the incorrect way.

 

[PaladinGirl]

It's not.

The thing here is... you asked a question because you didn't know. So when you refute the educated and correct answers you are given, using the phrase "I think" to preface your statements as if that added weight to their validity is... irritating. If your thinking was up to the task of answering the question, you wouldn't have asked it to begin with.

Your attempts to explain what you have witnessed are all coming from an empathetic perspective. You're trying to explain gecko behavior based on the reasons humans would display similar actions. The two species do not think in similar ways except on the most basic level. The motivations which can be applied to one are totally irrelevant to the other. They aren't friendly, they don't "get used to things" in the manner you're suggesting, there's no trust between them which would motivate one to follow another in an unfamiliar environment and they don't consciously make decisions to alter their behaviors. So previously having been housed with a group doesn't make any difference whatsoever. It's all instinctive and it's all a set of behaviors that developed in a species where other members of it are mostly competition (and very rarely something to mate with). Their dominance displays and territorial behaviors are not as obvious as an immediate fight to the death, but the eventual outcome when two animals cannot escape a common space and are intolerant of one another is the same. It just takes longer to manifest.

If you want to ignore the answers to the question you asked, because it's not what you wanted to hear, because it's inconvenient or because it conflicts with your incomprehensible need to treat your geckos as if they were puppies then by all means, follow what you think. I'll be sure to remember you and avoid the future thread where you're asking what to do about your gecko that refuses to eat or how to treat bite marks and missing toes.

Quarantine, on the other hand, is relevant. Although I'm torn between asking for details of how you handled it and just writing you off as a waste of time. I've about had it with people who need to be beaten in their thick skulls before they're willing to be educated, it's three times the effort to communicate half the information.

This will probably get deleted but I just have to say that this is why I'm trying to figure out how to block. This guy has a lot of knowledge and information but also likes to take the opportunity to analyze your every word and then go off on some kind of tangent. How weird and crazy :main_rolleyes: Sorry to use the forum to QQ about someone but I don't understand how this guy gets away with this behavior.

Anyways, good luck with your geckos. I always think about how fun it'd be to add another but I've read too much on how they can bully each other. Want to know the main thing about it that stops me from trying it? One of them losing their tails. :main_laugh: That's my worst nightmare when it comes to my geckos. Geckos have such beautiful plump tails! If I knew Toon would tolerate another, I'd do it in a heartbeat!!

 

[M_surinamensis]

I don't think whether the geckos have been quarantined or not is going to help answer the OP questions and I don't really see how it is relevant but that is me.

It's necessary to establish a baseline for health, innate stress factors and the degree of deviance from previous observations when trying to judge behaviors. An animal that went through a proper quarantine period is an animal that has been analyzed and observed under conditions that serve as a control.

Plus it's an automatic question whenever people mention introducing animals.

Many leopard gecko owners have kept multiple geckos in the same tank without any issues what so ever. If an individual wants to keep an careful eye on the co-inhabitants then that's their choice.

Sometimes geckos just don't get along with each other and need to be separated and thats what the OP might have to do. If they start skirmishing with each other often or one isn't eating as much then I would separate them. You won't typical see them fight but you will notice the marks. Make sure you watch them during feeding time so you know that one isn't getting a majority of the food. I hope things work out.

The appearance of individuality is something of a mis-impression. Leopard geckos are nearly identical when it comes to their behavioral potential. Everything they do, every behavior, is a result of instinct. There's some deviance due to genetic drift but the distinctions are usually so fine that they're extremely difficult to identify. Instincts are procedural, stimuli leads to a specific, predetermined response. Some of these are very easy to predict, usually in the case of very strong responses. Some of them can be quite complex, as a result of very slight changes to the exact stimulus or condition of the animal experiencing it. It could be mapped as a flow-chart, with yes/no options and variables all leading to conclusions, but it'd be a pretty large chart, accounting for hundreds and even thousands of variables. Changes to what is experienced can send the animal down a different path on the chart, which is what leads to the inaccurate observation of individuality. They're all working off very nearly identical charts, the same behavioral potential is inherent in all of them, programmed in from the moment a zygote forms. It is finite though, it has limits.

What this means is that leopard geckos are incapable of genuine learning or the formation of truly new behaviors. It also means that their displayed behaviors (as a tiny subsection of the potential behaviors) can be manipulated using techniques which would be ineffective if they were tried on species which have the capability for declarative thought. And vise-versa. They can't be taught, they're barely responsive on even the most rudimentary level to operant conditioning, they can't form abstract connections and they're not really self aware... but they can be provoked into different responses.

Doing so pretty much requires an understanding of what they are (and what they aren't). They need to be defined, including their limitations and the ways they deviate from human behavior models, before adjustments can be made. We need to comprehend how they function, otherwise whatever results we achieve will be incidental, rather than a culmination of calculated effort. It requires a rejection of our innate tendency to anthropomorphize our own experiences. When we look at a gecko behavior and conclude they were lonely or trusting or love one another or are friendly or cranky... that terminology, those concepts, obscure genuine understanding of what is happening and why.

So things like the way they interact with one another can be both predicted and controlled. That can't happen if someone's unwilling to accept anything except the easy answer they were looking to hear though.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

A simple "yes they were quarantined, thanks for asking" is pertinent. If a keeper chooses to house a group and has questions about behaviors, there is some previous history of behavior to refer back to. For instance, one of my girls has always been an aggressive eater. Laying across her food dish in the evening awaiting a worm. Eaten immediately when delivered. This was her normal behavior while growing up. I tried a couple times to house her with another female over the past year. Even though there were two food dishes, she scrapped with them and was removed. She does okay with a male for a week or so at a time. But not another female. Without a good quarantine to observe behavior, any patterns are unknown to the keeper.

Mardy, I'm glad you quarantined your new gecko. A lot of folks don't. Please understand, just as you can come and post questions for other forum members to hopefully respond to, other members may ask you questions they feel are important in order to offer you sound advice.

When I am introducing animals to each other for the first time, it's done when I plan to be in the room with them for a bit. If I hear a skuttle in the tub, one comes out right away. I'll try again in a couple days. If I ever have any aggression between two females, I will not house them together and hope they get along okay. Maybe she will do better with another, or maybe she has to live alone. Either way, I am prepared to do as necessary to protect my geckos from potential injury. There is always another enclosure ready. That's how I do it, others may do it differently and it works fine for them.

 

[ProGeckoServices]

Let me help remedy this situation in a way that is easy to understand. If you want to house two female geckos in the same cage there are three steps that must be followed.

1) Make sure there are at least 3 hot hides for the geckos to choose as their house, any less and fighting may break out over the limited space/if one house is not up to their standards etc.

2) House them in a large cage, preferably 40 gallon. With a 40 gallon you can have two hot zones on each end, this is important because if fighting breaks out you can put a divider in the middle and end up with two separate cages. Furthermore, if the geckos become territorial and choose to want to live on opposite sides of the cage then they have that option.

3) Rearrange and wash all furniture. I recommend putting all their hides in the dishwasher because it will remove scents. The goal is to trick both geckos into entering a brand new habitat, where territorial boundaries have not otherwise been marked.

 

[joneill]

I was under the impression that a forum is a place where people can ask questions and hold friendly conversations? Maybe I got the wrong idea from somewhere.

Anyway, Mardy what may help with the territorial aspect is changing things up a bit. Try rearranging things in the tank when you clean/disinfect it and keep both leos in spearate travel containers for a couple of days then when you place them back in the "new" tank, it will be as if they are both being placed somewhere different that neither of them recognize. Bear in mind that this will stress them out a little, but they will soon settle in and find what they need to. Also, make sure that there are duplicates of hides (both hot and moist) to avoid fighting for sleeping/hiding places. There should also be plenty of food available to prevent competing for a vital resource.

 

[OnlineGeckos]

Thanks for the help folks, and sorry if I incited any hard feelings. It really wasn't my intention.

I've since setup a new tank and separated them. My raptor female is just too aggressive, even though she's the smaller of the two. Poor jungle female was acting like a gentle giant, following her around, not biting her back even when bitten. It was just not meant to be, and to think I thought the larger one was going to be the bully if anything.

Moving my jungle female to a new tank, she was moving around more, and ate a few mealworms 30 mins after I moved her. So I think she's happier now, the move was a success. I just wanted them to be happy so they now both get their own nice 20 gallon tanks to themselves.

Thanks for the tips & suggestions again, they will be useful later on should I get more leos.