Questions about enigmas.

[Rebecca]

Hi. I am fairly new to this forum and breeding leopard geckos. I see alot of enigmas now and I was just wondering where they came from. Does anyone know how they are produced? I wasn't sure if anyone knew maybe what X what = enigma. Just curious to know how they came about. Thanks

 

[okapi]

Enigma X enigma or Enigma X anything else = enigma.
They are not a combination. They are a single loci dominant genetic trait. As for where they came from, Mark Bell hatched the first ones and then Kelli started working with them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Mark Bell had these incredible morphs 'pop' out of his colonies, and has no clue how they came about. Kelli @ HISS is now working with them, and is doing a fantastic job!

 

[trizzypballr]

Just a side note, if they are dominant which they are beleived to be, Enigma x Enigma could still throw non enigmas. Thought behind this, you could have a het Enigma, or a homo Enigma. now if one of your enigmas are homo, you would always pass down at least 1 Enigma trait and produce all enigmas, but if they are both het Enigma, there is a possibility you pass down non-Enigma traits from both enigmas.

 

[robin]

Just a side note, if they are dominant which they are beleived to be, Enigma x Enigma could still throw non enigmas. Thought behind this, you could have a het Enigma, or a homo Enigma. now if one of your enigmas are homo, you would always pass down at least 1 Enigma trait and produce all enigmas, but if they are both het Enigma, there is a possibility you pass down non-Enigma traits from both enigmas.

dominant or co-dominant?

 

[cjreptiles]

dominant or co-dominant?

Dominant (or co-dominant). It has been discussed previously http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=57301#post57301

 

[Rebecca]

Thanks for the responses. I read that about Mark Bell on their website. They are awesome lizards. That is amazing that they just popped up. Thanks for the explanation!!!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

you could have a het Enigma, or a homo Enigma.

Not exactly... the only time you can have a het (heterozygous) would be with recessive traits. If it is dominant, they would all be Enigmas. If it is co-dominant, it would either be an Enigma or not an Enigma.

 

[elphani]

Het only means that there is just one ''copie'' of (for example) the enigma trait (or Albino, or snow, or giant...) no matter if this is dominant, Co-dominant or rezessiv.
Homozygous means that there are two ''copies'' of the same trait, one from the mother one from the father (or very rare from spontanous mutations where in the end all such special traits come from ).
A het Enigma shows his trait and IS an Enigma because this trait is dominant but a het. Albino does not show this trait, becaus its rezessiv.
Co-dom shows the trait a bit when het and shows it fully when homo...

Please excuse my very bad english :blush:... I hope you understand what I mean :undecided:

 

[cjreptiles]

Not exactly... the only time you can have a het (heterozygous) would be with recessive traits. If it is dominant, they would all be Enigmas. If it is co-dominant, it would either be an Enigma or not an Enigma.

If a gecko has two different alleles for a certain trait, it is heterozygous whether the trait is dominant, incompletely dominant, co-dominant, recessive, whateer... So you can get heterozygous enigmas, they are just not heterozygous FOR enigma (i.e. heterozygous in the typical sense of the word as used by the reptile community) since a heterozygous enigma is still an enigma.

 

[robin]

If a gecko has two different alleles for a certain trait, it is heterozygous whether the trait is dominant, incompletely dominant, co-dominant, recessive, whateer... So you can get heterozygous enigmas, they are just not heterozygous FOR enigma (i.e. heterozygous in the typical sense of the word as used by the reptile community) since a heterozygous enigma is still an enigma.

thats what sandra said right above you. thank you for reinforcing it

 

[cjreptiles]

thats what sandra said right above you. thank you for reinforcing it

Ooops sorry

 

[trizzypballr]

I actually thought the same thing you said Marcia, someone else had brought this up in a different thread about het or homo Enigmas and I also thought it was wrong, until I did some research on it, and everything I found also stated het and homo being used to describe the # of copies of genes in a dominant trait.

 

[Sandra]

I actually thought the same thing you said Marcia, someone else had brought this up in a different thread about het or homo Enigmas and I also thought it was wrong, until I did some research on it, and everything I found also stated het and homo being used to describe the # of copies of genes in a dominant trait.

The same thing was discussed in this thread, if anyone wants to read it http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=8167

 

[okapi]

Not to get off topic But the Bells have a website? whats the URL? Ive tried googling and yahooing it and couldnt find it. Thanks

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If a gecko has two different alleles for a certain trait, it is heterozygous whether the trait is dominant, incompletely dominant, co-dominant, recessive, whateer... So you can get heterozygous enigmas, they are just not heterozygous FOR enigma (i.e. heterozygous in the typical sense of the word as used by the reptile community) since a heterozygous enigma is still an enigma.

While this may be correct in textbook genetics, co-dominant traits are just that... co-dominant. An Enigma is either an Enigma or it isn't an Enigma. A Mack Snow is either a Mack Snow or it isn't a Mack Snow. We need to be very careful about how we represent co-dom morphs, or the next thing you know people will be selling Mack siblings as 'het' for Mack Snow!

Remember when the giant gene was represented as a recessive trait? People were buying up "het'" giants like crazy thinking it was a cheap way to produce giants. It didn't happen. Giants are either giant or they are not giant. Technically, they could be 'het giants', but they weren't het FOR giant.

Just food for thought...

 

[robin]

Remember when the giant gene was represented as a recessive trait? People were buying up "het'" giants like crazy thinking it was a cheap way to produce giants. It didn't happen. Giants are either giant or they are not giant. Technically, they could be 'het giants', but they weren't het FOR giant.

Just food for thought...

i don't think it's so much genetics lol you know what i mean marcia :main_evilgrin:

 

[trizzypballr]

Is the Enigma believed to be co-dom now? I thought origionally it was thought to be co-dom with red eyes being the super form, but then red eyes were proven to be the bell form, making enigmas dominant, not co dominant. There definitely is a difference in my eyes though, if an enigma can be proven homo instead of het, it should be worth more, because that means it will throw only enigmas, compaired to only 50% enigmas by a het enigma. being dominant means that homo and het both have the same phenotypes, but they are still different genotypes. Even though its harder to know if you have a het or a homo, there still is a difference, and technically It could be proven out if you are willing to test breed for a year.

 

[trizzypballr]

Back to Co-Dom traits though, you are correct there is no such thing as a het with co dominant traits, because the "het" version is actually a visible "het" for the Super (homo) version and a "het" cant be visible

 

[cjreptiles]

While this may be correct in textbook genetics, co-dominant traits are just that... co-dominant. An Enigma is either an Enigma or it isn't an Enigma. A Mack Snow is either a Mack Snow or it isn't a Mack Snow. We need to be very careful about how we represent co-dom morphs, or the next thing you know people will be selling Mack siblings as 'het' for Mack Snow!

You are right, an enigma either is or isn't an enigma. That doesn't mean it can't be either a heterozygous or homozygous dominant enigma. Although the two look the same, genetically they are different since one has two enigma alleles while the other only has one. This may be important to the breeder since the former will give more (100%) enigma hatchlings.

I agree that we need to be careful about how we represent the geckos, so it may be relevant to state (if known) whether the enigma is heterozygous or homozygous.

The giant issue is a valid one, but the problem was more to do with RT not knowing the genetics behind them. A heterozygous giant is just a giant, while a homozygous dominant indiviual, with two giant alleles, is a SUPER giant.