Random question on leo deformities??

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Okay, so a random thought has been rattling in my brain for the past couple of days. Should geckos with any type of physical deformity be sold for breeding purposes? We have one that was sold to us that has a messed up looking jaw that almost looks like an under bite, but only on one side. (Hence how she got her name, Bubba. lol) We tried to breed her, as we were assured that she would be perfectly normal, but we have had so many problems with her. She seems to be more susceptible to sickness than all of our other geckos. We've only had her for a couple of months and she has had reoccurring shedding issues (One episode resulted in the loss of half her tail.) She doesn't behave normally and now she appears to have some sort of eye infection or something going on. I can't help but wonder if all of it is linked, like maybe she wasn't formed properly or something. Idk. It gets my my mind going though b/c I have seen geckos that have various deformities (crooked jaw, crooked spine, etc.) for sale and not labeled as "pet only". Should this be a requirement to sell them labeled as such or am I just over thinking? Thoughts?? ........

 

[sunshinegeckos]

I dont know if it is all linked but i personally would not breed any gecko that has a genetic flaw. There are some deformities that are not genetic and i cant say yours is but it sounds like she is not healthy and that would keep me from breeding her. Breeding takes so much out of the female and you need very healthy geckos for that. Good luck!

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Thanks. I'm not saying that hers in really linked or not, but just the fact that she's been kind of "funny" from the very beginning just has me worried. I don't really want to breed her anymore regardless, but it seems as though that's one of the things my husband and I are going to but heads about b/c he "doesn't want to lose his money on her". :/

I just think that people should specify that a gecko has physical deformities before it is bought. Our wasn't and it hasn't turned out very well so far. We were under the impression it was okay to breed her and she's been messed up ever since....

 

[M_surinamensis]

he "doesn't want to lose his money on her".

He stands to lose a lot more by doing things which are unethical than he does by retiring one female. Doing things right is a lot more important to long term success than doing them fast.

I'm far too lazy to repeat myself if I can get away with avoiding the extra work, so I'm just going to suggest that you do searches here using words such as; cull/culling, deformity, selective breeding, ethics or responsibility. Pick a few appropriately titled threads and read them over, it should leave you with a pretty complete understanding of the spectrum of choices and the reasons why some people make one decision over another.

And remind your husband that you cannot compete against the mass breeders for the lower end of the market, as a small breeding project operated by a private individual you can only see any degree of success by aiming high and providing top quality animals. That starts with the selection of breeding stock. Breed low quality and questionable animals and there isn't even the faintest chance of breaking even, much less making a profit. Reputations matter. Choices made by breeders matter. People who do scummy stuff, like breed deformed and sickly animals, get remembered in an unfavorable way.

 

[justindh1]

A seller SHOULD be up front about any and all deformities before a gecko is sold. That's bad business practices in my mind if it's not done. If you bought that gecko recently then I would contact the seller and ask for a refund or a exchange for not specifying the gecko had deformities.

Edit: Sorry I past the part where you have had her for a couple months. Too late to do anything about that.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

As far as I am concerned, I only see one option and that is to not breed her. I just think with all of the problems that she has had it's probably the healthiest route for her and as long as she's healthy I don't care how much he thinks we'll lose on her, ya know? I'm thinking about just telling him that if he doesn't want to house her and not breed her, then we can just put her for adoption to someone that will want her for a pet only and not care that she looks a little funny.

Breeding higher quality animals was also one of my points as well. you can't break into this kind of business with low quality on the shelves and expect to go anywhere. ....

 

[sunshinegeckos]

I have one gecko that i had high hopes for but she has a small kink in her tail and i cant be sure if its genetic or not but i wont breed her because of the possibility that it is. She is now just my pet. Nothing wrong with that. Im sure you wouldnt want to breed her and get a bunch of sick babies you will have to cull.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

A seller SHOULD be up front about any and all deformities before a gecko is sold. That's bad business practices in my mind if it's not done. If you bought that gecko recently then I would contact the seller and ask for a refund or a exchange for not specifying the gecko had deformities.

We bought her a a few months ago and we did contact the place where we purchased her from. They said it was a mix up. The gecko that we actually ordered had nothing wrong with her but one of their employees grabbed the wrong one by mistake. We got $20 off on our next order which is nothing in comparison to how much we have spent on trying to keep her healthy.....

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

I have one gecko that i had high hopes for but she has a small kink in her tail and i cant be sure if its genetic or not but i wont breed her because of the possibility that it is. She is now just my pet. Nothing wrong with that. Im sure you wouldnt want to breed her and get a bunch of sick babies you will have to cull.

Definitely not. Which, honestly, I am fine with keeping her as a pet. Yes, she looks a little bit "odd" but she's a real sweety and I love her. I'm just worried that he will try to go behind my back and breed her anyways and she gets seriously ill and dies or something. I would be furious....

 

[sunshinegeckos]

I wouldnt have settled for that. I would have asked for my money back or the one you ordered.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

We honestly didn't know that it would be a big deal. She was one of the first females we got and we were still trying to figure out the whole "breeding game". We asked if it would affect her as far as in general and in breeding and we were reassured that other than looking funny she would be perfectly fine in both. By the time we realized it she was already sick for the first time and we've had her separated from all the others nursing her ever since. ....

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Just out of curiosity, what morph is the gecko in question your husband is worried about not breeding and losing money on?

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Just out of curiosity, what morph is the gecko in question your husband is worried about not breeding and losing money on?

She's a SHTCT. She's gorgeous, but we only paid $150 for her, which is why I don't even understand his point. (lol)

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Just let him know how it will affect your reputation negatively selling just one bad animal. You only get one reputation.

 

[DierdreDreamwalker626]

Exactly. That's one of the points I keep bringing up. (lol) If he really wants to try to breed her anyways then I'm putting her up for adoption and kicking his butt. Either way, my point will be made and known. (lol)

 

[Adinar]

Definitely not. Which, honestly, I am fine with keeping her as a pet. Yes, she looks a little bit "odd" but she's a real sweety and I love her. I'm just worried that he will try to go behind my back and breed her anyways and she gets seriously ill and dies or something. I would be furious....

There is something seriously wrong with this picture if all's he is worried about is the money aspect of breeding apposed to the animal's well being. Apparently it means absolutly nothing to him. IMO I probably wouldn't breed anything period if you are worried about him pulling something like that when the animal has OBVIOUS issues and he wants to squeeze out a few dollars.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

One one hand, (put's on breeder hat) I am a responsible, ethical breeder who would never sell a gecko that I suspect has a genetic flaw other than "pet only". The problem is, there is no guarantee that whoever gets the gecko will not breed them. This is a strong point for culling genetic defects from the already shallow gene pool in leopard geckos.

On the other hand, (puts on animal lover hat) if a gecko is flawed and is otherwise healthy and thriving well, I see no reason that it shouldn't be placed in a loving home. There are lots of people who truly love 'special' animals that bring them joy.

Bottom line, a gecko that is even suspected of having of genetic flaws should NOT be bred.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

It is one thing if its a kinked tail or a few missing toes from a bad shed and a whole other thing if its a crooked jaw or crooked spine that results in continuing problems throughout the life of the gecko. Culling I think should be a case by case basis and not a set rule. Although yes you never know who will end up with the gecko in the end there are many people looking for a pet only that would be happy with a minor defect as long as it didnt affect the quality of life. It is all about knowledge though. If you dont come clean about it how is anyone going to know better. In this case it seems like it is messing with the quality of life and it should have been culled without ever being sold, mistake or not.


ETA: I am not saying it should be culled now.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

A LOT of very good points have already been brought up as to why this gecko in quesion should not be bred.

This is why it's always a good idea to research research research before diving into breeding leopard geckos. Learn how to keep a healthy gecko, how to treat a sick gecko, warning signs of potential issues, as well as everything about breeding/hatchlings prior to breeding or it's tough backpedaling and sometimes disappointing. There's so much more to it than putting a pair together, eggs for a few months, sell babies for big bucks. With a bad economy and flooded market it's not as easy as it looks. It costs a good bit to get everything set up, and that investment is not recovered in a short time, if ever.

 

[M_surinamensis]

It is one thing if its a kinked tail or a few missing toes from a bad shed and a whole other thing if its a crooked jaw or crooked spine that results in continuing problems throughout the life of the gecko.

It is important to draw a distinction between defects that have a known cause, as a result of illness or injury (like missing toes from a bad shed) and those which do not have a known cause (hatched with the defect, came from an unknown source).

Injuries and illnesses that are known should, as you said, be judged on a case by case basis. Breeding such animals is a question of the impact of the injury or illness, coupled with the ramifications it has on the animal's physiology and continued health. A missing toe is rarely a problem. Whereas a female who is being brought back up to health after a calcium deficiency or who has experienced feeding problems is going to suffer under the strain of egg production (and in all likelihood, produce poorer eggs).

Unknowns have to be treated as potentially genetic. The quality of life of the individual animal is of less significance than the potential impact on the entire population of captive animals. An animal born with missing toes needs to be treated very differently than one which had toes and subsequently lost them.