Simplified supplementation???

[Country Gecko]

Hello,

First, I was just wondering what the reason is that a seperate calcium dish is commonly used? Couldn't you just leave some Osteoform, etc. right in the feeding dish with the mealies?

Next, I've read alot of "put this calcium in this dish", "dust with this once a week", and "use these vitamins every two to three days", etc. Wouldn't it be considered just as well to put a 50/50 mix of maybe Vionate and Osteoform right in the mealie dish and that's it?

This supplementation thing just seems a little too detailed to me. I can't imagine that it requires this sort of precision and/or scheduling.

Thanks,
Glenn

 

[TokayKeeper]

the mixing of calcium and vitamins can result in the calcium chemically binding with some of the vitamins and minerals present within a multi-vitamin supplement. This in turn will result in the uptake of calcium by the body, be it geckos or other animals, potentially ourselves included, to not properly occur in the amount(s) or form needed to properly synthesize the ionic forms of these elements.

As for feeder insects, that's the purpose of proper gutloading. You are what you eat. Simple calcium powder or multi-vitamin powder is not typically a successful means of intake. Other forms are feeding fruits, veggies, and sources of protein (i.e., a balanced diet) resulting in the prey items being properly fed and thus those nutrients being transferred to the predator (in this case our geckos). All powder supplementation, or a standing dish, allows for is to make sure one can "sure fire" administor any trace elements or chemical compounds that will break down within the body to be absorbed through the proper ionic channels, pumps, active, and passive transport.

If you want more confusion, might I suggest college courses of intro biology, cellular & organismal biology, human physiology, animal physiology, plant physiology, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and biochemistry....all of which were fun courses (some I didn't take - human and animal phys) except the stupid chemistry classes. It only took me 6 years of confusion, of which 2 of those included interning, to get my BS in biology and realize after I had submitted for my degree that I could have applied for a chemistry minor and had I stayed another 2 semesters, applied for a biochem minor as well; all ust for a simple bio degree. God I hated NMSU's biology degree curriculum.

 

[Country Gecko]

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Hello,

With all respect, I have a degree in Environmental Science and realize things could be more complicated. I have had my share of college chemistry, biology, etc. I am also aware of the potential chemical bonding of the various vitamins and minerals and realize as noted on RepCal's packaging that they do not have them packaged together for this reason. However, I do not know if this is an issue with the short term combination of the two (maybe a month or so)?

Also, my mealies are fed (bedded with) a very popular and reputable gutload product in which calcium and vitamin supplements are added. Also, sliced apples and various other fruits and vegetables are routinely fed as well. I really have no confusion as far as gut-loading is concerned, just the supplementation end of things. After all, the very popular "Vionate" seems to have a broad range of vitamins and minerals (including Calcium) all in one product?

 

[TokayKeeper]

vionate, if I remember right, is also high in vitamin A, at least compared to other supplements (ones intended for reptiles in particular - vionate's an avian and mammalian supplement last I checked). That's part of the reason why I feed carrots and butternut squash to my feeder insects. It's a natural form of vitamin A via caronetoids; a form more easily accepted through the body if memory serves me right. Bell peppers are also good forms of getting carotenoids in nutritionally speaking.

In all honesty I wouldn't trust something as both a calcium and vitamin supplementation as one whole source knowing calcium's binding nature to other elements/ions - that is in at least forms of that via a dusted supplementation. Nothing against such particular company you hint at. If the sources of these elements are coming into the body via a compound form that can be easily broken back down into their respective elemental forms (forms for the active and passive transport systems I mentioned) then I'd see not harm, no foul. But why risk that assumption? Are there scientific journal publications proving the reliablity of this? I unfortunately don't have access to JSTOR anymore to search.

Don't take my last paragraph in my previous post to heart. It was more of an out loud ranting to myself of all the chemistry and biochemistry crap I hated, but surprisingly remember still.

googling for analysis of herptivite vs vionate....

Rep-Cal Herptivite Multivitamin
Vitamin A requirement from Beta Carotene

Rep-Cal's HERPTIVITE is a superior multi-vitamin, multimineral and amino acid food supplement developed from the latest findings in reptile and amphibian nutritional research. Its formulation contains all natural source ingredients with a base of "sea vegetation." Unlike other companies which use non-nutritional "bases," Rep-Cal's "sea vegetation" base is rich in essential trace elements and minerals. Furthermore, HERPTIVITE contains precise levels of vitamins and minerals combined in perfect balance to ensure correct utilization of protein and other essential nutrients for growth, reproduction, maintenance and many aspects of your reptile's bodily functions. HERPTIVITE is the first reptile vitamin without Vitamin A. Instead we use Beta Carotene which is an anti-oxidant that is converted into Vitamin A in a regulated way, so there is no threat of Vitamin A toxicity. Make Rep-Cal's HERPTIVITE the dietary supplement of choice for your reptiles.

Guaranteed Analysis-guarantees Are Minimum, Unless Otherwise Stated:


vitamin A
220,000 I.u. Per Kg.

vitamin D3
22,000 I.u. Per Kg.

vitamin B1 (thiamine Mononitrate)
39.6 Mg Per Kg.

vitamin B2 (riboflavin)
79.2 Mg. Per Kg.

vitamin B6 (pyridoxine Hydrochloride)
9.98 Mg. Per Kg.

vitamin B12
0.15 Mg. Per Kg.

calcium Pantothenate
110 Mg. Per Kg.

niacin
275 Mg. Per Kg.

folic Acid
2.2 Mg. Per Kg.

calcium Chloride
6,720 Mg. Per Kg.

ascorbic Acid
2,494.8 Mg. Per Kg.

vitamin E
119.9 I.u. Per Kg.

94,802.4 Mg. Per Kg.

calcium (ca)
(min) 9.5% 113,762 Mg. Per Kg.

(max) 11.4% 47,828 Mg. Per Kg.

phosphorus (p)
4.79% 4,994 Mg. Per Kg.

sodium (nacl)
(min) 0.5% 14,982 Mg. Per Kg.

(max) 1.5% 22 Mg. Per Kg.

iodine (i)
0.0022% 550 Mg. Per Kg.

iron (fe)
0.055% 5.5 Mg. Per Kg.

cobalt (co)
0.00055% 55 Mg. Per Kg.

copper (cu)
0.0055% 423.06 Mg. Per Kg.

magnesium (mg)
0.0424% 75.68 Mg. Per Kg.

manganese (mn)



ingredients: Degermed Corn Meal; Dibasic Calcium Phosphate, Calcium Carbonate; Salt (sodium Chloride); Ferrous Carbonate; Magnesium Oxide; Niacin; Calcium Pantothenate; Riboflavin; Bht (butylated Hydroxytoluene) As A Preservative; Di-atocopheryl Acetate; Vitamin A Palmitate; Thiamine Mononitrate; Manganous Oxide; Cupric Sulfate; Calcium Iodate; Pyridoxine Hydrochloride; Cobalt Carbonate; Folic Acid; D-activated Animal Sterol (source Of Vitamin D3); Cyanocobalamin (a Source Of Vitamin B12).

 

[TokayKeeper]

bah....I typed up the analysis on herptivite but my 15 minute edit time frame after posting expired...I might type it up in the morning.

 

[Country Gecko]

TokayKeeper,

Thanks for your replies! I have to say, it is nice to get some well thought out and detailed answers to questions rather than the "it's just the way you should do it" kind of replies.

Your second and third paragraphs did answer more than I was looking for, but in all of this I can see this is a clear case of "why not just keep the supplements seperate" and it does make good sense. One thing I can say though is that last summer I hatched out one leo that showed symptoms of MBD by maybe 6 weeks old. All of the others grew just fine and my setups have always been: calcium dish, worm dish, and vitamin dusting every few days. I'm wondering for this particular case if it would have been better to have the calcium in the worm dish? Do all hatchling leos know to acquire their calcium in this seperate dish? I have seen that other breeders have occassionally had hatchlings develope MBD early in life and again wonder if this is why?

Thanks again,
Glenn

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Glenn, we all need to remember that when we see discrepancies in methods, it's usually because people are sharing what works for them. Not a whole lot is carved in stone, and there is more than one correct answer. The great thing about this forum is that when we all share our experiences, most of of us will glean enough information to make informed choices for ourselves.

Unlike iguanas or other reptiles and amphibians, not a lot in known about leopard gecko nutrition... at least from a scientific source. There are some things we do know though:

- We know that high levels of fat soluble vitamins (VitA and VitD) are not a good thing. (even though my herp vet says he has never seen a case of hypervitaminosis D in leos).
- We also know that high levels of phosphorous in the diets of insectivorous reptiles can cause kidney problems and gout (uric acid crystals in joints and tissues).
- We know that when certain vitamins and minerals are pre-mixed by the manufacturers or too far in advance, they are not assimilated in the proper ratios (as TokayKeeper suggested), and perhaps even degrades their chemical properties.
- We know that it's not so much how much Vitamin A or Vitamin D that poses a problem as much as the ratio of Vitamin A to Vitamin D. The ratio of Vitamin A to Vitamin D to Vitamin E should be 100:10:1.
- We know that it takes a LOT of long-term abuse and neglect for a leopard gecko to acquire MBD.

When we supplement our geckos, we simply need to read labels. Products like Osteoform (created for warm-blooded animals) are very high in phosphorous. Vionate is very high in Vitamin A, but the ratio of Vit.A to Vit.D is actually quite low.

Whether or not we leave a bowl of calcium, or put calcium in with our mealworms, or dust food items with calcium, we need to provide this essential mineral for our geckos. Whether or not we provide weekly vitamins for them by whatever means, we still need to do it.

Hopefully now that leopard geckos (and other reptiles) are ever-growing in popularity as 'legitimate' pets, the veterinary nutritional needs will be studied, addressed, and documented as well as they are for other animals... and we will soon have something carved in stone as far as their supplemental needs are concerned.

 

[TokayKeeper]

Glenn, i replied but while researching infromation for the post, i was logged out. When i logged back in my reply was wiped clean within the message field. I'll reply sometime after 5 pm mountian time or if i get the chance to take a break at work.

 

[Country Gecko]

Marcia and TokayKeeper,

Thank you VERY much for your replies. I have to admit, I am always looking for the "best" supplementation schedule for my leos or any herps I may have at the time. I have read Tremper's book many times over and all of the preceeding leo books by Vosjoli (spelling?). There are of course always critics as to what even the big players in the reptile world do.

Marcia, I'm really curious as to why the occassional leo shows early signs of MBD. I have seen young leos for sale from reputable breeders which were noted with such signs as well. I suppose an individual could have some sort of absorption problem that could hinder vitamin/mineral intake. Do you feel it is better to have calcium in the mealie dish rather than a seperate dish for young leos? Could it still be the parents if they were well supplemented and no other young show any signs of it?

Thanks again,
Glenn

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, I'm really curious as to why the occassional leo shows early signs of MBD. I have seen young leos for sale from reputable breeders which were noted with such signs as well. I suppose an individual could have some sort of absorption problem that could hinder vitamin/mineral intake. Do you feel it is better to have calcium in the mealie dish rather than a seperate dish for young leos? Could it still be the parents if they were well supplemented and no other young show any signs of it?

Excellent questions. First of all, I feel that there are some geckos that have calcium mal-absorption issues, and it could be inherent. Calcium metabolism is dependent on the parathyroid gland function, which is a part of the thyroid. All living creatures are subject to thyroid disorders, and any metabolic problem of this nature is complex. Environmental and dietary factors are major contributors, but so are stress levels and congenital elements.

My feelings are that just because there is calcium in a bowl, doesn't insure the geckos are actually ingesting it. I have seen geckos lap up calcium in a bowl like a dog lapping water, but I have also received a sub-adult gecko from a great breeder (who uses calcium this way) that had her lower jaw snap broken from lack of calcium! Over the years, I have had a couple of hatchlings come out of the egg with visible MBD, too.

All of my geckos get supplemented the same way. I keep calcium powder in the mealworm bowl because they are bound to get some of it when they eat them. I also gutload my feeders with nutritious food, even though I know that it is next to impossible to 'load' a larvae. When I used to feed primarily crickets and dusted them, I knew my geckos were getting the supplements... but now that I feed mealworms as a staple, I can't always know for certain.

 

[dprince]

Thanks so much for the helpful information, Marcia, Glen, and Tokay Keeper. I am always open to new ideas of how best to care for my geckos, and this gives me some great ideas. Very much appreciated. :main_thumbsup:

 

[andypg3]

This thread was so close to answering my question...

I just got a young leo and am dusting with a multivitamin (no calcium) on every feeding and dusting with Repcal calcium w/ D3 twice a week.

It sounds like a good idea to provide a dish of calcium at all times. Which would be better, calcium w/D3 or without?

Thanks in advance, I'm trying my best to understand the needs of one of these guys as best I can.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I just got a young leo and am dusting with a multivitamin (no calcium) on every feeding and dusting with Repcal calcium w/ D3 twice a week.

I would do it the other way around... give the juvie calcium every feeding and the vitamin weekly.

 

[andypg3]

Thanks,

To clarify: calcium w/ D3 or without?

 

[surena]

Thanks,

To clarify: calcium w/ D3 or without?

This should help.

 

[andypg3]

Thank you much

 

[malt_geckos]

We do calcium every day that we don't do herptivite or D3. We give D3 once a week, and herptivite once a week. So Calcium for 5 days and herp 1 day and D3 one day.

 

[Country Gecko]

Thanks Marcia and everyone else for your replies!

 

[mynewturtle]

Intresting. Myself I always have a dish of calcium with D3 in with the geckos. Leopard geckos are nocturnal meaning they shouldn't be exposed to light. That being said IMO 1-2 times a week isn't enough d3 supplment.

There are many geckos with MBD yet we advise 1-2 a week of d3 supplment. All my geckos have been fine and even some breeding females well finish a hole cap of d3 off whithin minutes and be fine.

 

[godzillizard]

check out Repashy's forum--under the "general superfood discussion"--(2nd to last from the bottom of the page)--Allen wrote an awesome article titled: "Vitamin D, Calcium and phosphorus article" it answered ALOT of my questions about supplementation...