Snake eye in a Bell Albino- indication of eclipse or equivalent allele?

[Baoh]

Hi,

I happen to possess a Bell albino female that has one of her eyes displaying a roughly 50% snake eye. Is this common? I know that it is in Blizzard lines and RAPTOR lines, but I never seem to come across much talk of such things outside of Tremper-based projects.

I am curious about the possibility of using this, if it is indeed an eclipse-type variant at play, in order to cultivate my own RADAR group and then using that as a base for parallel (or even new) morph development projects.

So, have you come across Bell albinos with snake eyes? Does this provide evidence of an eclipse trait? To help, the other eye appears to be typical for a Bell albino, in my limited Bell experience.

Thanks.

 

[Nigel4less]

That sounds very interesting, I have not come across any Bells with Snake-Eyes. Perhaps you could post a picture?

 

[supperl]

I dunno about yours but I have 2 Mack Snow Bell Albinos with partential ruby eyes and I know someone here in Germany with another 4 MSB with such eyes and their are a few in the US with this eyes, maybe the same?

 

[boutiquegecko]

Here's our Ruby. We hatched her out 2007 and as far as we know was the only bell with eyes like hers. Until yours. I have absolutely no eclipse blood in her. She is 100% bell, though she does come from stripe lineage. One eye is snake eye, one eye is solid ruby.
ps-do you have a photo of your girl?

 

[supperl]

Here are mine. On the pics they were only a month old but they hold their eyes.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Baoh, does your female just have super red eyes like Thorstens or is it a solid ruby?Bells can have extremely red eyes. Thorsten I can make out the pupil in the second one, but the first one is sort of blurry. Does it have a pupil you can see as well or is it a solid eye? I think your's might have something to do with the mack gene.

 

[Baoh]

Just took some pics. She was squirming, so the clarity is inferior, but I do believe it shows enough. The one eye is comparable to Boutiquegecko's Ruby's snake eye. The other eye is typical Bell Albino.

 

[Baoh]

I wonder if the mutation has simply occurred in whatever the normal responsible allele(s) is/are. Happens often enough, in my experience, with other reptiles, such that this could be a plausible explanation. So, I am curious if these can basically be used to create something like a RADAR. Lucky us, if so. If not, oh well.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Very cool. Did you hatch her out? Are the parents reg bells or from stripe/jungle lines?

 

[yellermelon]

This guy is Paul Allens.

 

[Crazygecko]

Jesus Chris. Awesome close up pic. What kind lens you use for that? Macro?

 

[Baoh]

Very cool. Did you hatch her out? Are the parents reg bells or from stripe/jungle lines?

Random Craigslist buy. She is supposedly from typical Bell albino lines.

 

[supperl]

Yeah I guess that has to do with the Mack gene
More pics here:
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=21594

 

[boutiquegecko]

That is a great pic. Is that Paul's mack bell male or a new one?
Pretty great craigslist find Baoh, though I guess she could have eclipse in her since you don't know her parents. Me, I'd prob breed her to either what I know to be 100% bell to see the outcome or an eclipse non het tremper. If there's the slightest chance she might be a dark tremper then you'd know from the bell breedings.

 

[Baoh]

Pretty great craigslist find Baoh, though I guess she could have eclipse in her since you don't know her parents. Me, I'd prob breed her to either what I know to be 100% bell to see the outcome or an eclipse non het tremper. If there's the slightest chance she might be a dark tremper then you'd know from the bell breedings.

Well, I talked to the previous owner, and he bred her several times with Tremper and Bell animals. All he ever got from her were Bell albinos and others of normal/wild type appearance and she is only supposedly produced from Bell albino lines exclusively, but I have yet to confirm that myself which is why I am not 100% sure (taking it on faith, much as it is with almost all of our purchases). I have been thinking of eventually breeding her to one of the following in order to make sure she has some sort of eclipse variant:

Bell het Eclipse
Eclipse het Bell
Eclipse het for no albino strains
Normal het Bell het Eclipse

Like I said before, though, it could simply have arisen as a random mutation rather than a result of lucky breeding. In red ear slider turtles and snapping turtles, for two examples, sheer numbers have allowed for remotely produced albinos in multiple isolated populations. It happens in a great number of animals. It's quite possible that this is the case here as well. This could go for your Ruby, Marlo, and my own female's hatch date predates JMG's RADAR project by years. At the least, it's neat.

If that's the situation, she's basically a banded RADAR Bell of "low quality" (compared to the JMG animals, for example, in terms of the visible results of expression). In such a scenario, it would probably be best to breed her to a male Bell variety (as you suggested) and then breed her offspring to each other as well as one male back to her to see if the trait will be passed on.

Thinking about it a little more, it's probably best to go with the Bell option so that I don't mix in the extra variable of introducing the eclipse gene when trying to determine if I can pass on a ruby eye trait. This is especially true if it is a different version of the same gene or suite of genes that presents as eclipse when expressed. If it's the same, then mating her to a male with the eclipse trait would speed up the process. If it is not identical, then mating her to a male with the eclipse trait would 1) not further my ambition and 2)actually make it impossible to tell which trait is being expressed when breeding the offspring with each other as the visual presentation would appear identical. On the bright side, I could pick a more interesting homozygous Bell to mate her with. A Bell Hybino, for example.

Have you attempted to breed out this trait with your unusual female? Have you ever bred her Bell offspring together or have you bred any of her male Bell progeny back to her to see if you could reproduce it?

Until a few days ago, I just considered mine an oddity and took the possible potential for granted.

I'm curious if the more massive leo breeders have seen these pop up in their Bell populations.

 

[Paco]

Have you produced any offspring from her yourself? You can allways back breed one of her sons to her to prove out the Eye trait. It be good way to prove the trait out. I know some don't like to do this but it is a method for proving out genetic traits.

 

[Baoh]

Have you produced any offspring from her yourself? You can allways back breed one of her sons to her to prove out the Eye trait. It be good way to prove the trait out. I know some don't like to do this but it is a method for proving out genetic traits.

I tried to pair her with a male that is het Bell in order for them to produce offspring. They are still in the same enclosure to this day since -I think- around March or April of this year. Unfortunately, they seem to show no sexual interest in each other. I fed them heavily on mealworms this year, too, so who knows how much of an effect that had. I'm going to isolate her in a new enclosure, boost her weight up substantially (she's usually around 80-85g) with extra food (crickets, wax worms, and a pinky every so often), do a significant cool-down period, and then try to pair her with one to two new males.

Scenario 1 with an assumption of laying and hatching success: I'm thinking about starting with a Bell Hybino and seeing if that works. I'd incubate the first clutch for males and latter clutches for female, mate one male back to her upon reaching maturity and use the other to mate with the female siblings to see what's up.

Scenario 2 with an assumption of laying and hatching success: Purchase a het RADAR male and breed him to her as well as, if I can find it for a reasonable price, a Bell Patternless . See if some of the offspring from the Het RADAR and my current Banded "RADAR" exhibit the RADAR phenotype. That will tell me if the trait my female has is identical to JMG's RADAR trait. If yes, then I can move in that direction with the project. If not, I'll have a unique version of the Ruby-eye trait that is parallel to RAPTORs and RADARs which I can name and sell exclusively for a little while. Also, if the two are not compatible, I'll still have the offspring from the het RADAR male x Bell Patternless (or whatever Bell I get my hands on) pairing that I can use to generate genuine RADARs from.

So, no babies yet, but I'm gearing up for it now that I have found the enthusiasm over her hypothetical potential. Best case scenario, I'll have my own morph. Worst case, I'll end up with RADARs from the male. Not exactly a bad deal. I just hope this crap with the mealworms have not rendered her sterile or something horrible like that. Imagine losing such potential over such a poor reason. I'll remain guardedly optimistic until I have evidence otherwise.

I'm curious about Marlo's success with Ruby's breeding, too.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Since Ruby was only hatched last year we bred her to her dad this year. We were only lucky enough with all losses to get one male from her. He is a sort of normal looking bell, but his eyes appear more silver than normal. But what do I know, it seems all my bells/bell hybinos this year have silver eyes compared to the normal reddish bell eyes I usually have. Shrug. I'm not 100% what I'm pairing her or her son up with next year, but have some possibilities going.

 

[Bling_my_leo]

Very nice eyes!! Wish I had a leo like that.

 

[Baoh]

I am pleased you managed to secure a male out of that. It is such a crucial step.