Some clarification on introducing new animals.

ebuch

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**Firstly my apologies to the moderators as I accidentally posted this in the care sheets forums :-(

Hello, my name is Eric, I've posted only a few times but I wanted to ask a question of you all and hopefully get some clear answers. I've done my research on the process of introducing a new leopard gecko to a habitat that's preoccupied and I wanted to make sure I have my facts straight.

So here's the scenario:

<Just Background on the gecko>
Around six months ago I adopted a leopard gecko from a local pet store which I will not name that was in pretty bad shape. Standard colors, female, had retained a shed on her leg that left it pretty much paralyzed. The leg was swollen so badly that the top had begun to mold over the bottom portion and the skin she retained was trapped underneath it. I was sure she was going to lose the leg, or die from infection, but I wanted to give her a fighting chance because it was apparent to myself that the pet store didn't care. I took her to the vet and he gave me some antibiotics and did his best to cut the skin off the leg. He told me to keep her moist and try to get the rest of the skin day to day and to apply the antibiotics to the leg and hopefully it would heal. After a long month of caring for her the leg fully recovered and now she's a perfectly spoiled gecko with a fully functional clubbed foot named Beru. <Sorry about that, I wanted to give some background>.

Anyway, it has occurred to me that due to conflicting research it may not be best to keep her housed alone. (Myth 1) I've read that a female gecko, even if housed in proper conditions can become egg bound if there isn't a male there to keep her fertilized. Be this true or not, my wife and I have decided to add a male to her habitat because she's still young, less than a year. And she isn't all that large (she eats plenty and does not look at all underfed) but she is nowhere near the size of Admiral Ackbar, my 4 year old male who doesn't even like the fact that her viv is in the same room as his, and is contemptuous of me for having to be near him to feed him. So housing her with him is completely out of the picture. I'm confident he would kill her due to his territorial nature and overwhelming size advantage.

We've found a male to introduce to her that is around 2 or 3 months younger than she is and a little bit smaller, but not enough to where I think she'd try and start a fight with him. However, I have her housed in a 20W and plan on moving her into a 20L before I bring him into the picture.

So I have questions

1 was the question about her needing a male, but this is kind of a pointless question because I'm getting him either way.

2. Because I'm moving her into a new environment do I need to wait to put him into the tank with her so she can adjust to it? I don't want to put them in together and have her confused about whose house it is because at the end of all this if he doesn't work out he's going to get moved into the 20W. She has seniority. So does she need time to get used to the new home?

3. I've read that female leopard geckos are rarely dominant towards males, at 5 months is he going to be sexually mature enough to where he tries to take over the environment? Do I need to go through a long process of introducing them day by day when they're both under a year old?

4. When he becomes sexually aggressive would it not be wise to add a second female to keep the pressure off of her? Seeing how this probably will be the case, as I've housed just one male and one female crested gecko together and he almost killed her. First he mated with her so much that she rejected him, and then when she did he kept her trapped in a corner because it was as if losing the option to mate with her left her as a threat to his food supply. I don't want this to happen to Beru. So it seems adding a second female would be a good option, that being said would it be best to do it now while they're young instead of waiting for that whole mess to start happening?

That's about it. I appreciate any advice you can offer, I just hear and read different things and want to get some fresh input on these questions. I think I know enough about the methods of how to introduce each other and how they behave, I'm really just looking for an opinion from someone with more experience than me as my leopard geckos are generally housed separately and this is something I've been wanting to do.
 

Embrace Calamity

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A juvenile female should never, ever be housed with a male, no matter his age. She can't become egg bound from being alone, but she can (and very possibly will) become egg bound if she becomes pregnant too young, which is pretty much guaranteed if you put her with a male. Geckos of different sizes and ages should also never be housed together. Leopard geckos really should be housed alone in general - maybe an exception can be made for breeding, but if I were to breed leopard geckos, I still wouldn't do it, as there have been instances of males killing females. They are solitary creatures, and keeping more than one in a small area is often stressful, sometimes resulting in injuries, going off food, or even death. I just spoke to someone who was keeping females (two or three, I don't remember which) in a proper setup with plenty of room for both, and the one female still went off food and started losing weight. As soon as she was separated, she began eating again.

~Maggot
 

ebuch

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A juvenile female should never, ever be housed with a male, no matter his age. She can't become egg bound from being alone, but she can (and very possibly will) become egg bound if she becomes pregnant too young, which is pretty much guaranteed if you put her with a male. Geckos of different sizes and ages should also never be housed together. Leopard geckos really should be housed alone in general - maybe an exception can be made for breeding, but if I were to breed leopard geckos, I still wouldn't do it, as there have been instances of males killing females. They are solitary creatures, and keeping more than one in a small area is often stressful, sometimes resulting in injuries, going off food, or even death. I just spoke to someone who was keeping females (two or three, I don't remember which) in a proper setup with plenty of room for both, and the one female still went off food and started losing weight. As soon as she was separated, she began eating again.

~Maggot



I respect what you have to say and this is precisely why I started this thread, because it seems I've read plenty about successfully housing multiple females and females with males without issue. Now I have another condition to consider.
 

Embrace Calamity

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I respect what you have to say and this is precisely why I started this thread, because it seems I've read plenty about successfully housing multiple females and females with males without issue. Now I have another condition to consider.
I'm not saying it can't be done, but the risks are enormous - and that's with adults. Housing 2 geckos together: Agressive behaviour, badly injured female, pictures Again, it should only be attempted with adults, or juvenile females. The fact of matter is, there are no benefit to housing geckos together except saving space. They are solitary creatures who don't enjoy company and can very easily be stressed by it. I have seen many people with geckos who mysteriously stop eating, and then pick up once they're separated. Or the gecko isn't getting the spot that has the right temperature, and their body begins to shut down because they can't thermoregulate properly. Yes, it can be done successfully, but when it is, it's not in the interest of the gecko. People do it because they like the idea of having more than one in an enclosure, and more often than a fluke it ends badly.

Regardless of anyone's success with adults, juvenile females should never, ever be housed with a male, no matter the age. They will breed when she's too young, and her body won't be prepared to handle it, which very well could result in her being egg bound. It's like a 13 year old getting pregnant - not a good idea. It's generally agreed that females should not be allowed to be bred until they're a year old and at least 50 grams (some say older and bigger). There are many, many things about leopard geckos that come down to opinion and preference, but this is not one of those things. It's just a fact.

~Maggot
 

acpart

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There are definitely a variety of opinions about housing geckos together or separately (to the point where I think it's going to be Gecko Time's next "Prose and Controversies" issue). In general I agree that leopard geckos are not social creatures, housing them singly is fine, and there's always a risk in housing them in groups. That said, I do house my baby clutchmates together or in small groups (except for any with special needs) and also house my breeding groups (1 male, 2 females) together, usually without incident. If there is incident, they get separated. It happens occasionally every few years.

On to your particular situation. It's relatively unusual (but not unheard of) to have a female leopard gecko lay eggs without benefit of a male. I've owned many leopard geckos and geckos of other species. The only reptiles I've ever had that have laid eggs without benefit of a male are my 2 female Phelsuma (day geckos) and my bearded dragon (and I will never own another female bearded dragon again for that reason). By putting a male with your female, you're practically guaranteeing that she will lay eggs. By keeping her separate from the male, you're practically guaranteeing that she won't lay eggs. Get the male in any case if you want him, but consider the following:
--regardless, any new gecko needs to be quarantined from other geckos for at least a month
--if you want to breed, that's fine as long as the geckos are of proper age and weight, you have the proper breeding supplies and the resources to house and care for babies
--if you put the male and female together they will breed
--if you're worried about egg binding (relatively rare in my experience) and egg production, then don't put the female with a male

I hope this is helpful. If you make the informed decision to put more than one gecko together, I'm happy to suggest more specifically how to accomplish this in another post.

Aliza
 

DrCarrotTail

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I think the other answers you've already gotten covered everything you need to know to make an informed decision. I'd add to what was said by saying:

If you're worried about the possibility of egg binding, I believe it would be higher if you put a male with a female before she is big enough to safely handle breeding. Geckos are like rabbits. You put two together and you are almost certain to get eggs. If the female is not big enough they can hurt themselves or produce unhealthy babies. Personally I would wait until she is of breeding size (50g or over) to introduce the male.

I have at least one male that is so overzealous I cannot keep him with any female(s) for more than 24 hours. He harasses them 24/7 and stops eating as he is all consumed with sex. The novelty may wear off after a while but I am not inclined to put my females through the stress of finding out. I have other males that are fine with females but you need a backup plan in case yours is the aggressive overzealous type.

Geckos that are different sizes can hurt if not kill each other. If they are the same size you're safer but that's not guaranteed. If the female is not ovulating she may attack regardless of how careful you are or how you introduce them.

Many (if not most) geckos are totally okay with being introduced into a group as adults. The females and males in my breeding groups that I introduced this year had no problems with one another (except for the overzealous male who now only gets conjugal visits :p). I always introduce them in a clean neutral bin so there is no chance of anyone being territorial.

Good luck with your geckos! I hope you come to a decision that keeps them all happy and safe :)
 

ebuch

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I think I'm going to get an electronic scale to keep track of her exact weight and start off with a quarantine on the male. Then I'll do little neutral introductions to see how they react to one another once she's big enough to be able to handle it. Maybe bring them near each other while they're still small so when they both get big enough they'll be used to each other. if all else fails I have plenty of room and equipment for many more reptiles. I have enough for a full backup system for all three of my reptiles as it stands so it's not like he won't still have a good home if the two stop working out.
 

ebuch

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I'm curious: Why do you want to keep them together so badly?

~Maggot

Actually the more I think about it the less I do. It just frustrates me that there are so many different opinions out there and there are so many published blogs on the internet that seem to think that shit like that is okay. Makes me wonder if I've been doing anything that's been detrimental for my other gecko over the past few years.
 

ebuch

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IMG_20130613_112321.jpg

By the way this is Beru. I don't know how she manages to get on top of that water rock like that, but she has a really intelligent personality (I know that she's not actually intelligent by any stretch of the imagination) and that's what I like about her. That white spot on her arm is from where the skin swelled up over itself from when she was at the pet store.
 
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ebuch

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Shes very cute. But like everyone else I would keep her alone.. By the way, I would remove that sand... she could get impacted.

It's not sand it's desert blend ground walnut shells. And she doesn't get crickets so she's not randomly striking substrate. She eats meal worms in a bowl, and she eats everything with me standing right there so I'm not too concerned about her becoming impacted by substrate.
 

katie

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It's not sand it's desert blend ground walnut shells. And she doesn't get crickets so she's not randomly striking substrate. She eats meal worms in a bowl, and she eats everything with me standing right there so I'm not too concerned about her becoming impacted by substrate.
I still wouldn't use it. But of course its your choice..
 

lisa127

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For what it's worth, I have and would keep like size/age females together. I would not, however, keep a female with a male. He will pester her and stress her out. Especially if she is the only female in the cage.

Also, I agree with the above poster. The walnut bedding is even worse than sand.
 

Embrace Calamity

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Impaction isn't the only problem with the walnut blend. To a gecko's little feet, it's rather sharp and uncomfortable. I don't think you could find a more unnatural substrate than ground walnut shells (it's amusing they try to call it a "desert blend," though).

~Maggot
 

acpart

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It's true that there are a lot of different ways to do things and it can get frustrating to a novice trying to figure out what to actually do. If you read critically you'll see that some things are almost universally agreed on and some things are almost universally not agreed on. Consider following the things that are agreed on and experiment with the things not agreed on to see what works best for you. Eventually you'll figure out what makes sense for you and your animals. Enjoy them.

Aliza
 

lisa127

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It's true that there are a lot of different ways to do things and it can get frustrating to a novice trying to figure out what to actually do. If you read critically you'll see that some things are almost universally agreed on and some things are almost universally not agreed on. Consider following the things that are agreed on and experiment with the things not agreed on to see what works best for you. Eventually you'll figure out what makes sense for you and your animals. Enjoy them.

Aliza


great advice.
 

ebuch

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Impaction isn't the only problem with the walnut blend. To a gecko's little feet, it's rather sharp and uncomfortable. I don't think you could find a more unnatural substrate than ground walnut shells (it's amusing they try to call it a "desert blend," though).

That's effing bull snot that they put on the package at the top of their list of compatible creatures "Leopard Geckos". I'm reading reviews and people are all pretty much agreeing that this substrate will kill your Leo.

I just need to get second opinions. Usually when you come to a message board there is a set paradigm that the users there agree to, people get used to agreeing with the same people and before you know it there isn't a second opinion anywhere to be found.

So this is the final decision.

I'm getting the male gecko, but I'm going to house him in his own enclosure for as far as I can see, he has a unique set of markings, he's bright yellow with some white here and there, I like that, and I'm going to put regular sand back into the female's cage. I know that there is a huge controversy with using sand but like I've said before the other male has been on sand for almost 4 years without issue and she has done well on it herself so I'll just stick with what works and as far as substrate goes we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

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