Super RAPTOR or Snow RAPTOR id help

[jermh1]

I am new to the raptors and snows so im not sure what I have here, again first ill show the parents both snow RAPTORS.

here it is its the one on the left

eye shot

I have a few Ideas of what it could be, one is both parrents are het for the actual Patternless RAPTOR and this is just a normal RAPTOR
other is a Patternless Snow RAPTOR. and last is super RAPTOR.

 

[Lpac]

patternless snow raptor?

 

[gixxer3420]

Looks like all my raptors that Ive been hatching so far this year. They change a bit as they put on the grams, I would just say that its just a raptor.

 

[justindh1]

Well if the parents are both Snow Raptors then they should both be raptors for sure. The left one looks like a Raptor but could be a Snow Raptor. The right one looks like a Snow Raptor but also just looks like a Snow Tremper. A eye shot of the right one is needed to comfirm its a snow raptor or snow tremper.

It really sounds like you aren't sure of the genetics of your breeders so that creates problems in identifying the hatchlings.

 

[jermh1]

Almost everyone calls an eclipse, tremper albino a RAPTOR. Now there are banded, jungle, and patternless RAPTORS. my confusion is that I have not in person seen more than one or two actual hatchling Super RAPTOR, Snow RAPTOR, or RAPTOR, and the RAPTOR pics I have seen, have more yellow in them. The other gecko hatchiling in the Pic is an eclipse, Tremper albino, het snow (snow RAPTOR to most people).
and I do know genetics of my breeders (now), if the hatchling is a normal RAPTOR they are both eclipse, Tremper albino, snow, het Tremper patternless.

 

[RampantReptiles]

Almost everyone calls an eclipse, tremper albino a RAPTOR. Now there are banded, jungle, and patternless RAPTORS. my confusion is that I have not in person seen more than one or two actual hatchling Super RAPTOR, Snow RAPTOR, or RAPTOR, and the RAPTOR pics I have seen, have more yellow in them. The other gecko hatchiling in the Pic is an eclipse, Tremper albino, het snow (snow RAPTOR to most people).
and I do know genetics of my breeders (now), if the hatchling is a normal RAPTOR they are both eclipse, Tremper albino, snow, het Tremper patternless.

There is no het snow... its mack snow.

Its not het Tremper patternless its patternless stripe.

The gecko in question does not look to be a snow. It looks like a plain RAPTOR.

Mack Snow RAPTOR X Mack Snow RAPTOR
25% Super RAPTOR
50% Mack Snow RAPTOR
25% RAPTOR

The other hatchling does look to be a Snow RAPTOR but with a jungle pattern.

 

[boywonder]

There is no het snow... its mack snow.

Its not het Tremper patternless its patternless stripe.

The gecko in question does not look to be a snow. It looks like a plain RAPTOR.

Mack Snow RAPTOR X Mack Snow RAPTOR
25% Super RAPTOR
50% Mack Snow RAPTOR
25% RAPTOR

The other hatchling does look to be a Snow RAPTOR but with a jungle pattern.

there is such a thing as a het snow, het means two different homo means two the same, it just happens that mack snow hets are a visual het, the gene is incomplete dominant (CO DOM)

 

[RampantReptiles]

Usually when people say snow they are referring to mack snow, there is no het mack snow.
What you are talking about would be het super snow. Which most people refer to super snows as being super snow or just super in the case of Super RAPTOR.

 

[boywonder]

heterozygous abbreviated to het means one copy snow one copy normal in this particular instance

all mack snows are visual hets

if they are not het they are either normals, super snows or not mack snows but maybe gem, tug or lb

 

[RampantReptiles]

yes I know... mack snow is the heterozygous version of a super snow.
Mack Snow is one part of the super snow gene and one part not.

I am saying a het cannot have a het... so there is no het version of mack snow.
It would be like saying the het of a het albino.

That being said there is no het "snow", there is het super snow(if that is what you want to call it...) more commonly known as mack snow.

 

[jermh1]

ultimatly snow and super snow are like trade names.
A Mack snow is a het any time you have two different alleles (versions) for the same gene it is considered Heterozygous, regardless of codominance or incomplete dominance. I do try to refer to them as snows, on here, but in class I call them het snows as they are one of my only examples of incomplete dominance.

But you guys are right in thinking according to the baisic principal of dominance that there cant be a heterozygous offspring where the snow trait is hidden


I was wondering about the jungle, on the adults, my other adult jungles seem to have a more irregular pattern, but now looking into it I see some of the juvies may have the trait.

 

[RampantReptiles]

I think the mom you have has a more banded pattern with jungle influence which is very similar to the baby you hatched out that has a pattern. The male has more of a stripe/reverse stripe thing going on in his pattern... I have to look at him again.

 

[RampantReptiles]

Yeah he has some bands as well so maybe there are varying degrees of "jungleness" and I dont know if this is line bred or not. I know I like the jungles that are just crazy all over the place over the ones that look more like they have bands.

 

[justindh1]

Taken from Geckos ETC!

"Het is a slang term for “heterozygous” (“hetero” means different). Heterozygous animals carry one copy of a specific recessive trait (albino, patternless, blizzard) and one copy of a “normal” trait. We have two copies of each gene (one from each of our parents), and in the case of a heterozygous animal it has inherited one copy of a recessive gene and one copy of a dominant gene."

Het really refers to a recessive gene not a dominate or co-dominate gene. It's confusing at times but having a visual het isn't really the term of a het but I can see how people can think that. When your dealing with a super form then you really say that it has one copy of that certain genetics in the base form and two in the super form.

 

[jermh1]

Het really refers to a recessive gene not a dominate or co-dominate gene. It's confusing at times but having a visual het isn't really the term of a het but I can see how people can think that. When your dealing with a super form then you really say that it has one copy of that certain genetics in the base form and two in the super form.

ahh see now we are making progress
you are correct with the one allele from the mom and one allele from the dad, but you are getting confused by the dominant and recessive terms, they were coined by Mendel, a recessive allele is considered as a trait that is expressed only when the dominant allele is not present.
The term Heterozygous just means two different alleles for the same gene, regardless of how they are expressed dominant, recessive, co dominant or incomplete dominance
you can look it up in any bio book.

 

[justindh1]

a recessive allele is considered as a trait that is expressed only when the dominant allele is not present.
QUOTE]

So is a enigma a dominate trait? What happens when it is present with a albino gene which is recessive? Can you not visual tell that they carry both?

I may not know everything in reference to genetics but it seems like your in the same boat.

 

[jermh1]

I do not know all the details of gecko genetics but I do teach biology and have a good understanding about what im talking about as it relates to genetics. If im not sure about something I will be eager to ask for clarification.
dominant and recessive alleles are different versions of the same gene, the different traits are different genes. different genes can be expressed together regardless of their standing with other allelles of the same gene such as a (snow, enigma, eclipse, albino, blizzard) each would be expressed. Each trait then sorts independantly during gamete formation, so each individual traits probability is unaffected by the others.
so lets say we had two hets of the above traits and crossed them
each recessive trait would have a 1/4 chance of being produced so with probablity you multiply across 1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/64 for the eclipse, albino, blizzard (the old trihybrid cross) then 1/64 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/256 chance of having all traits. when you actually get an offspring you may rule out many of the 256 boxes in the big punnett square, and thats how you come up with chances for different hets.

 

[justindh1]

I do not know all the details of gecko genetics but I do teach biology and have a good understanding about what im talking about as it relates to genetics. If im not sure about something I will be eager to ask for clarification.
dominant and recessive alleles are different versions of the same gene, the different traits are different genes. different genes can be expressed together regardless of their standing with other allelles of the same gene such as a (snow, enigma, eclipse, albino, blizzard) each would be expressed. Each trait then sorts independantly during gamete formation, so each individual traits probability is unaffected by the others.
so lets say we had two hets of the above traits and crossed them
each recessive trait would have a 1/4 chance of being produced so with probablity you multiply across 1/4 x 1/4 x 1/4 = 1/64 for the eclipse, albino, blizzard (the old trihybrid cross) then 1/64 x 1/2 x 1/2 = 1/256 chance of having all traits. when you actually get an offspring you may rule out many of the 256 boxes in the big punnett square, and thats how you come up with chances for different hets.

I thought we were talking about the definition of a het and what they include, not how to determine the possible percentage of offspring carrying certain genes from both parents. I understand that also tho not to the full extent as others and as it seems you also. As a biology teacher you probably teach genetics every semester or year. I commend you for teaching as I am going to school for my BSED. All genetics typically work the same way you just have to know how the different mutation genetics act; dominate, recessive, co-dominate, and etc; which is easy to find. I have no problem asking questions too. My opinion about what het refers to is just that, my opinion. You can keep referring as you do. Like I said I understand why people do refer a het as such.

 

[Tony C]

Jeremy and boywonder are correct, heterozygous or het mean that the organism in question possesses two different alleles of a gene, it is not exclusive to recessive traits. Referring to a mack snow as a heterozygous mack snow and a super snow as a homozygous mack snow are proper, if uncommon, usages.

Edit: The definition given in my genetics text for heterozygous is: "Refers to an individual organism that possesses two different alleles at a locus."

 

[justindh1]

Jeremy and boywonder are correct, heterozygous or het mean that the organism in question is possesses two different alleles of a gene, it is not exclusive to recessive traits. Referring to a mack snow as a heterozygous mack snow and a super snow as a homozygous mack snow are proper, if uncommon, usages.

Edit: The definition given in my genetics text for heterozygous is: "Refers to an individual organism that possesses two different alleles at a locus."

Ya you bet me at that, lol! I just looked into my genetics book also states something similiar, "The term can be used to describe whether the 2 alleles at the locus that are similiar or different." It also goes on to say that "This is a either/or case and that there are no inbetweens or other scenarios." I should of explored it a little more. I will admit when I am wrong, for once, lol!