The "No Substrate" Method

[Rhacodactyl]

Does anyone here use the no substrate incubation method for leo eggs? I'm going to start trying it with all of my gecko eggs, and I was just wondering what results the rest of you had experienced if you use it. Thanks.

 

[david13]

can u explain the "no substrate" method please, thanks

 

[Halley]

can u explain the "no substrate" method please, thanks

Please!

 

[Rhacodactyl]

So I guess it's safe to assume you guys haven't used it?

It's pretty self explanatory-eggs are incubated on a solid surface (usually a grid-type shelving so vapor can move through it) and a water reservoir saturates the air for near 100% humidity. It allows gas exchange in all possible directions so eggs can maximize oxygen intake and carbon dioxide output.

I've had some cresteds shed immediately after hatching and they ingested a good bit of vermiculite that was stuck to them in the process, so it has the added benefit of eliminating any chance of impactions from substrate as well. I know a lot of python breeders swear by this method (it originated with European keepers of green tree pythons as I recall) but I don't know how much it has caught on in the lizard world.

 

[Halley]

Id give it a go, that sounds great.

 

[david13]

it sounds good, how much humididty is there suppose to be?? sint 100 percent too much?

 

[fallen_angel]

I always thought 100 percent humidity was too much? I think the humidity needs to be more like 80 percent (?) It could make the eggs begin to mold due to too much moisture, but I am honestly not sure.

 

[GeckoGathering]

No

it sounds good, how much humididty is there suppose to be?? sint 100 percent too much?

can u explain the "no substrate" method please, thanks
__________________
-David

I figured if anyone knew the "no substrate" method it would have been "No David"........................Just my 2 cents on my opinion of no substrate to the Albey perlite method. In my mind about the same thing with a little cost for perlite, but I bet a whole lot less chance of the wrong "wetness/dryness" humidity guessing. When understanding why perlite was chosen over the other substrates ........its about like setting your eggs in a small version of a sauna. This is also what you are creating with a no substrate method.........
Reasoning being the chosen perlite does not hold water as many think. It is a drainage material. It allows the .8 water to drain to the bottom of the container, no holes in the lid allow humidity to stay in the container with humidity around the egg setting on the dry top. That is why less problems occur since the egg does not set in water held by a water retention material as vermiculite, peats, etc.**
My containers contain
one clutch(small sauna)... others have 12 to 20(medium sauna) no substrate
full incubator floor (big sauna)........but who and how do you control the humidity?........
** Certainly it can be done with all the sizes of saunas and all the types of substracts (or No-substracts per no-David) but...... more testing, more losses, more unexplained gecko happenings, .......when we have a very good, well thought out, and well proven method, if all is left as is described in the Albey perlite method......... it's a set it, and forget it, method and it works great..
With fertilization, incubator fluctuation, food supplementation, and humidity all affecting a healthy hatching ..I think I'll keep working at perfecting the other three...............
Good luck on everyone's chosen methods. I'll leave a light on for you.
...................take care. HJ

 

[mynewturtle]

Is this what your talking about? http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17741&highlight=incubation+method

I use this for snake eggs.

 

[GeckoGathering]

Is this what your talking about? http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=17741&highlight=incubation+method

I use this for snake eggs.

I don't think you were directing this to me but I'd like to comment anyway........This is the nearly the same method as the albey method using perlite..with or without the grid (as long as the amount of water does not come in contact with the egg bottom.)
It would be the same if a ratio of .8 X perlite = water used.
It could be the same thing if vermiculite is used,
but only with the grid in place.
Perlite is a drainage material while vermiculite is a water retention material.....Thats why percentages of the two are mixed together in many potting soils......to retain moisture with good drainage......
take care. HJ

 

[Rhacodactyl]

Perlite is a drainage material while vermiculite is a water retention material

I haven't used perlite myself, but I was under the impression that it's porous and would retain water. I referenced Kohler's "Incubation of Reptile Eggs" to try to clear this up, but the section on perlite is much shorter than the one on vermiculite. However, it does say:

"At the same water potential (water available to the eggs) perlite feels a lot drier than vermiculite. However, perlite holds the added water for longer than vermiculite."

Either way I don't think it would make a lot of difference when using this methodology. However, if perlite doesn't retain water wouldn't it be more practical to use something like aquarium gravel to serve the same purpose?

 

[Halley]

Aquarium gravel would work, but it is more expensive.

 

[GeckoGathering]

Hoffman Co.

I haven't used perlite myself, but I was under the impression that it's porous and would retain water. I referenced Kohler's "Incubation of Reptile Eggs" to try to clear this up, but the section on perlite is much shorter than the one on vermiculite. However, it does say:

"At the same water potential (water available to the eggs) perlite feels a lot drier than vermiculite. However, perlite holds the added water for longer than vermiculite."

Either way I don't think it would make a lot of difference when using this methodology. However, if perlite doesn't retain water wouldn't it be more practical to use something like aquarium gravel to serve the same purpose?

Information per the Hoffman Co., makers of both products. Both volcanic minerals.(on perlite) "helps to improve drainage and aeration.".........on potting mixes that want dryer conditions for say cactus.....more perlite is used to accomplish this.
IMHP yes, gravel would work.......not sure of practical when thinking of cleaning off gravel, compared to tossing the perlite after a hatch.
(contamination reasons)