Traits becoming recessive

[lamarr]

With the Tangelos...I have no idea. BUT, I'm leaning towards the possibility that some line-bred traits may become so "strong" over generations that they begin to appear to act co-dominant...or in fact, become somewhat "co-dominant"...if that makes sense.
__________________
Paul Allen
www.brightalbino.com

Paul posted this in the locked down thread but it got me thinking, (everybody say uh-oh) Could we be on our way do developing subspecies (or more) of leopards with our tight line breeding protocols? Our lizard rooms are no different from isolated populations. Each breeding project gets "protected" until we see genetic weakness. We are an evolutionary force at work! I'd be REALLY interested to know if anyone has seen morphs that don't produce viable offspring. Thanks Paul, that got me going hmmmmmm.:main_thumbsup:

 

[bro paul]

I don't know of any morphs that don't produce viable offspring...yet. I've heard rumors and had first hand experience last season that the Patternless Fat Tail gene doesn't like to (or won't) produce viable offspring when crossed with the Amel gene. JMG has stated on their site that this is a lethal combo. I guess we'll see.

It's funny, when I read your post it got me thinking about how some breeders (mainly those who line-bred or keep pretty protected projects) produce geckos that have distinct looks to them...their eye shape, head shape, etc... You can almost tell where certain geckos came from by looking at their features...not just pattern and color. Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[Okee Reps]

I was talking to some breeders at the last Tampa Show and one of them mentioned that he selectively breeds leos in his colony for exactly those things. Head shape, body length, eyes, etc. It was the first time I had ever heard of something like that. My first thought was this guy is insane and paying way too much attention to his geckos but when I got home I started to noticed some of those traits. There is only one breeders stock I can definitively determine by look but it's so defined that I'm hardly ever wrong.

 

[paulnj]

over a bunch of generations in snakes, you can indeed produce line bred traits that act like a codom(ultramel cornsnakes) so I have been told, but no morphs in leos have exhibited those characteristics that I am aware of.

On a side note, I have talked to Jeff Sr about his Fatty projects alot and those are indeed HIS findings. I think it's very noble of him to post his findings so people are forewarned as to the possiblity that indeed that is a fatal combo... sadly. Everyone wants to see the amel patty fatty, so best of luck to those trying.

 

[Gregg M]

In my opinion a polygenic trait like the tangerine coloration in leopard geckos will only appear to act in a recessive way... Once the gene is outcrossed it becomes apparent quite fast that it is infact not acting recessive... The outcrossed animals may carry the gene but will not always pass it down even after the first outcrossing...

In the case of it acting in a co-dominant fashion, I do not see it... The simple fact that there is no super form of a polygenic gene is enough for me... Sure, polygenic genes can be improved and worked with to look better but this does not constitute a co-dominant gene...

Recessive is recessive
Polygenic is polygenic
co-dominant is co-dominant...

They all work differently and what they produce differs in many aspects...

 

[lamarr]

Thanks Gregg

THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT. You've stated this ad nauseum and it has nothing to do with this thread. Drop your personal issue, please.

In my opinion a polygenic trait like the tangerine coloration in leopard geckos will only appear to act in a recessive way... Once the gene is outcrossed it becomes apparent quite fast that it is infact not acting recessive... The outcrossed animals may carry the gene but will not always pass it down even after the first outcrossing...

In the case of it acting in a co-dominant fashion, I do not see it... The simple fact that there is no super form of a polygenic gene is enough for me... Sure, polygenic genes can be improved and worked with to look better but this does not constitute a co-dominant gene...

Recessive is recessive
Polygenic is polygenic
co-dominant is co-dominant...

They all work differently and what they produce differs in many aspects...

I guess the next hot button would be the enigma affliction. Too much tinkering with the machine? This is great, I'll be at shows the next two weekends comparing eye shape and tail to body ratios Instead of saying "nice RAPTOR". Well I'm in it for the entertainment and this has certainly opened a new door in the hobby.

 

[paulnj]

Lamarr.. you might reread Gregg's post? Gregg had alot of knowledgable info there and I don't see any nauseating argument

He replied to a post that asks about traits becoming recessive with a cut and paste with the words ""co-dominant" referring to a certain morph :main_robin:

 

[lamarr]

Sorry

Sorry Paul if my reply seemed snippy. The thread that I cut from got locked because this tangerine obsession wouldn't die. ( And for the record I do agree that Tangerine is a line bred trait.)

I'd like to keep this thread on the idea of genetic effects in lines and morphs. I'd like to know where people would draw the line between evolution and selective breeding, more about phenotypical changes in certain breeders lines etc.

Again sorry if it came off wrong, I just don't want this particular brushfire rekindled.

 

[Gregg M]

Way to back pedal Lamarr... You asked for an opinion on wether line bred traits can become recessive or co-dominant... I gave a simple answer in the nicest of tones... Seems like I am just an ass no matter how I put things... Lamarr, I will be sure not to answer any thread you start... Hows that???

I really am starting to see why the most knowledable people I know in the hobby will never step foot in a herp forum...

 

[lamarr]

At the risk of more back pedaling

As the OP just let me clarify.... I'd like to know if anyone has seen evidence of changes in their (or other) leopards that could be evidence of a larger scale of changes than just coloration.

I just think that it's interesting that there are collections that are genetically diverse enough, with enough individuals, where there is at least a theoretical possibility of speciation.

 

[nevinm]

ild like to add on to what gregg said and possably clearify a little bit, if i dont than sorry. this is also IMO... take for example red stripe... a line breed trait. i have a female that came from a very strong line of red stripes. so far anything ive breed her to that isnt a red stripe or has red stripe blood, i dont produce ANYTHING that even resembles a redstripe. but if i breed her to her offspring, or something with redstripe blood i can produce somethng that would almost start a restripes. so as gregg said, if you out cross that animal there is nothing, and does not act as a recessive trait.

hope that might help or make some sence... if not forget i said anything lol

nev

 

[paulh]

As I see it, both evolution and selective breeding change the genetic material over time. Selective breeding requires human intervention, and evolution does not.

IMO, line breeding combines human-desired genes at a number of genetic locations in one strain of animals. So the trait is a combination effect. If outbreeding causes the trait to disappear, then many of the genes producing the trait are recessive to the normal counterpart genes. If outbreeding merely causes a weakening of the trait, then many of the genes are dominant or codominant to the normal counterpart.

 

[phalanx]

As many know i've been working a lot with tangerines over the past few years. I kept some of the strongest tangs from 2007 and In 2008 I did the combination of some of my sunglows with blazing blizzard and with patternless albino. I wanted nice tang trempers het for blizzzard and patternless to use for another project. The outcome of those animals were pretty much unsuspected.

out of tremper blazing blizzard x tremper sunglow I hatched some tremper sunglows het blizzard and of tremper patternless albino x tremper sunglow I hatched tremper sunglow het patternless.

Both the patternless albino and blazing blizzard male are in no way related to the sunglows. I know the hypo gene is very strong. But never thought it would be that strong.

does anybody have simular experiences?

 

[Gregg M]

I bred a Mack snow to one of my TUB tangs... Made so really nice creamsicles and tangerines and some drab looking snows and normalish looking leos...
Thats not the workings of a recissive gene, is it...