Undigested dubias

[kameo37]

Hi,
We became the proud owners of two female Leos about 2 weeks ago. We are not sure of their age, but the person we got them from said he had them for 6 mos. So we are guessing they are in the 8-12 mos range.
They have been eating and pooping great, until this morning. I found whole, undigested dubias in the poop corner with a bit of white, which I assume was urate. I have some reptile experience (bearded dragon, snake) so I know the common cause for this could be that the temps are too low. Their warm side is always between 90.4 and 91.4, cool side is 75-78. They go back and forth, but they do hang out on the warm side more often. I use a UTH only, the "medium" zoo med. I am feeding daily, switching between dubias (like 1/4 to 1/2 inch), mealworms and butterworms. They have a capful of calcium without D3 in there at all times and I dust with calcium with D3 once a week. Multivitamin twice a week.
What am I doing wrong?

 

[rossg93]

hi, they may need something to get the digestive system going proparly, im not sure of the name but there is a supplement with enzymes in that aid digestion in leos, hope this helps

 

[Embrace Calamity]

1) What kind of thermometer are you using and where is it placed (on the floor, halfway up the tank, etc.)?
2) What supplements (brands) are you using?

~Maggot

 

[kameo37]

Zoo med probe thermometer set right on the tile, which is on top of the UTH.
Zoo med Repticalcium (with and without D3) and Rep-Cal Herptivite.
Rossg93, do you mean an acidophilus type thing?

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Well it doesn't look like any of the supplements you have contain any vitamin A, which will cause problems down the road, but I don't believe it would affect digestion. I'd still recommend picking up Repashy Calcium Plus and ditching the ones you have though (or use Repashy and leave the plain calcium in the tank if you want). Can you get a pic of the BM? And did the previous owner ever have any issues with this?

EDIT: After mulling this over and talking with someone else, I'd try adding overhead heat. Belly heat is important in digestion, but by only providing a warm surface, every time they leave the warm hide where the warm air is trapped, it's probably about room temp. Their bodies will only be heated while in the warm hide or sprawled on the UTH, in which case, it's only their bellies. (I always think about a chilly, sunny day; you walk outside and the pavement is nice and warm, but the air is chilly. The pavement is only going to keep you warm if you sprawl out on it. Otherwise, you'll be a bit cold.) Of course, many people keep them successfully with only UTHs, so it's not definitely the problem, but it's certainly worth a shot. Unless someone else can come up with a different idea why they might not be digesting their food properly, of course.

~Maggot

 

[kameo37]

I did have a CHE for the first few days, but I read so many care sheets that said it was unnecessary that I ditched it. I'll bring it back out.
The Herptivite does have a Beta Carotene in it which it states, on the label, that beta carotene is "an anti-oxidant that is converted into Vitamin A in a regulated way, so there is no threat of Vitamin A toxicity."
This is what I use for my beardie also. Seems like no Vitamin A toxicity would be a good thing? Does most of the gecko community use Repashy? Every reptile community seems to latch on to certain brands.
In mulling it over myself I'm not positive that it was poo at all. I am thinking it may have been vomit. I'm also thinking it was vomit due to amount of the dubias. My husband fed them that night and I remember him saying that they were "loving those dubias". He thinks. He gave them 5-6 each. He was just feeding until they lost interest, but I think maybe it was too much.
Either way, I'll try the CHE!

 

[DrCarrotTail]

There is some evidence that carnivores (insectivores are included in this group) are less efficient at converting beta carotene to vitamin A then herbivores, like tortoises. Personally, I use herptivite and have no issues. I've seen several other breeders say they use vionate and think I may try this out next. Repashy seems to be the easiest choice for a small number of geckos but its an all in one and I like to be able to fine tune my supplementation.

I was about to write last night (but crashed after a 20 hour day before doing so....haha) that if the dubias are whole I doubt they could have been digested. Parts of them might be whole if they went through your gecko digestive track but they would resemble the shape of poop. If they still look like the shape of dubia I would suspect they were thrown up like you said.

Personally, I think a CHE is unnecessary unless the normal temp in your house is lower than 65 degrees. If your gecko is in a 20L or larger and you want to try it i don't think it could hurt but in smaller tanks it may dry out the enclosure too much and cause more problems than it solves.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

There is some evidence that carnivores (insectivores are included in this group) are less efficient at converting beta carotene to vitamin A then herbivores, like tortoises. Personally, I use herptivite and have no issues.

I'm curious what you gutload your feeders with? Because I've seen a number of people who use Herptivite having their geckos diagnosed by vets with vitamin A deficiencies.

~Maggot

 

[kameo37]

Thanks to everyone so much for the help and thoughts. Both gals had normal poop this morning so I am going with the over feeding theory.
I'll pick up some repashy. I don't think I'm skilled enough yet to recognize early warning signs of any deficiencies so I'd rather not take the chance.
So what is your opinion for additional heat: CHE, red light, black light, incandescent? I thought CHE being that they are nocturnal, rock dwelling reptiles, but I have seen a LOT of varying opinions! What's your experience?

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Thanks to everyone so much for the help and thoughts. Both gals had normal poop this morning so I am going with the over feeding theory.
I'll pick up some repashy. I don't think I'm skilled enough yet to recognize early warning signs of any deficiencies so I'd rather not take the chance.
So what is your opinion for additional heat: CHE, red light, black light, incandescent? I thought CHE being that they are nocturnal, rock dwelling reptiles, but I have seen a LOT of varying opinions! What's your experience?

I'm a fan of CHEs. I don't like the idea of using colored lights since, contrary to popular belief, leos can see colored lights very well. I can't imagine it's fun being bathed in colored light when it's supposed to be dark. Most people notice the red ones really disrupt their nighttime activity, though some people use the black light ones. It's really personal choice like a lot of things are.

~Maggot

 

[DrCarrotTail]

I'm curious what you gutload your feeders with? Because I've seen a number of people who use Herptivite having their geckos diagnosed by vets with vitamin A deficiencies.

You've asked me this in at least one or two other threads and I've responded. Not saying it can't happen. Just saying I've had no issues and know other people that have used Herptivite for longer than I have and have had no issues either. Supplementation IMO is very important but only half the battle. Variety in the types of insects you feed and what those insects eat is just as important as the supplement you use. If you're feeding 100% pet store crickets straight from the bag and supplementing with the best stuff on the market I would assume you'd run into issues eventually.

I would agree that if you need to use over head heat a CHE would be your best bet.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

You've asked me this in at least one or two other threads and I've responded. Not saying it can't happen. Just saying I've had no issues and know other people that have used Herptivite for longer than I have and have had no issues either. Supplementation IMO is very important but only half the battle. Variety in the types of insects you feed and what those insects eat is just as important as the supplement you use. If you're feeding 100% pet store crickets straight from the bag and supplementing with the best stuff on the market I would assume you'd run into issues eventually.

I would agree that if you need to use over head heat a CHE would be your best bet.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't log away every single thing you ever say to keep for the rest of my life. It's an honest question, but god forbid I don't remember having asked it before. I'll be sure to be more wary of asking you questions in the future.

~Maggot

 

[kameo37]

Thanks again!
I'm going to a reptile show tomorrow and I'm sure I'll be able to get some Repashy there and hopefully talk to some leopard gecko breeders about these same topics. Now y'all have me thinking about my beardie's supplements. So it goes...

 

[OhioGecko]

I'm curious what you gutload your feeders with? Because I've seen a number of people who use Herptivite having their geckos diagnosed by vets with vitamin A deficiencies.

~Maggot

I have personally used herptivite for many years and have not had any geckos with vitamin A deficiency. I also gutload all of the feeders with natural fruits and veggies and then dust with herptivite once a week. A common misconception of a lack of vitamin A is too much calcium. An abundance of calcium can block the intake of other vitamins. Our second year breeding I did supplement too much Calcium and 90%+ of our hatchlings had eye deformities. I stopped all calcium supplementation for two weeks and only dusted once a week with Calcium w/D3. The eye deformities disappeared completely in our hatchlings after a couple months. The following season we had less the 5% with eye deformities.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I have personally used herptivite for many years and have not had any geckos with vitamin A deficiency. I also gutload all of the feeders with natural fruits and veggies and then dust with herptivite once a week. A common misconception of a lack of vitamin A is too much calcium. An abundance of calcium can block the intake of other vitamins. Our second year breeding I did supplement too much Calcium and 90%+ of our hatchlings had eye deformities. I stopped all calcium supplementation for two weeks and only dusted once a week with Calcium w/D3. The eye deformities disappeared completely in our hatchlings after a couple months. The following season we had less the 5% with eye deformities.

I'm guessing you supplement with veggies that contain vitamin A, correct? Herptivite certainly can work if the feeders are given vitamin A, so don't think I'm saying it can't. I recall someone on here who had been using Herptivite and gutloading their feeders with veggies such as carrots and it worked out just fine, but then after stopping using vitamin A-rich foods, their geckos developed a vitamin A deficiency. No change in calcium intake. Like I said, I know of people who used only Herptivite and have vitamin A deficiencies confirmed by vets, but, of course, there are those such as yourself who use it without issue. What it seems to come down to is if the geckos are getting vitamin A from the feeders themselves, and if people want to make sure they are, by all means, Herptivite it up.

I'm curious, what supplement were you using when you oversupplemented and how often?

~Maggot

 

[Ozy]

One time Ozy pooped out a whole large cricket! But she's fine.