Us, the keepers

[Musilitar]

I was wondering about this today: We keep animals in a very limited space, as we were better than them, as if that we ruled them, even though they had unlimited space before we started meddling.
Look, I know this might sound aggressive but it is not meant to be so.
I was just wondering, cause we put animals in cages ranging from 1-? times their length.
You can ask yourself the question: Would I like to be put in a cage of 10-? feet?
I mean, basically we are also animals, in some ways more evolved, but in my honest opinion in same ways far behind.
I know this is a very delicate topic but I would still like to hear other people's thoughts about this.
Greetings Lode

 

[acpart]

I think about this a lot, especially the idea of caging animals. This is how I've resolved it for myself at this point:

a. When I have put leos in a larger space (like a whole room closed off with places to hide, but not places they could get lost in, they either go to the edge of the space and try to "get out" or they go under something and then sit. I conclude that no matter what the space, for the most part it doesn't seem to me as if they are going to really use it as long as their temperature and hide requirements are met

b. Sometimes I worry that they are going to "get bored". I really think that this is me projecting human issues on them. I really think that if their food, temp, shelter and reproduction needs are met, they are fine and are not worrying about creating the next great reptile novel

c. I have wondered a lot about what else we're breeding into our lizards besides color and size. I think and hope that one thing we're breeding in is comfort in an enclosed space and it's a reason why I highly prefer captive bred to wild caught animals. I think an animal that's miserable in a cage will probably not be healthy, may not breed and may have fewer offspring, so these caged generations may be evolving toward a different lizard temperament.

Just my opinions. Take them for what they're worth.

Aliza

 

[Musilitar]

Thank you for the reply!
Those are some very interesting findings, and they helped me with this, thanks
I was more thinking about bigger reptiles though, because in my opinion leopard gecko's ratio are different, mine is in a tank by herself with plenty of room, but let's take the case of a beardie, they get about 20 inch right? Well if you get a terrarium that is 40 inch long, which is pretty big, it's still only 2 times his length, my leopard gecko has 4 times her length.
If I wanted to do this for a beardie I'd have to get an 80 inch cage?
I'm just looking for opinions on bigger lizards because I only have one leopard gecko I cannot post an opinion on this.
I have found that my gecko has enough room, and for some reason I do have much trouble with caging her, perhaps because she is so small.
But now I am looking to perhaps get a beardie, and this whole captivity thing came to my head.
I still cannot think of a good reason to keep them caged.
In my honest opinion excuses like: If I don't keep them someone else will anyway or they would die in the wild anyway are not relevant.
Anyone else has an opinion on this?
Greetings Lode

 

[Jaiden23]

This is a topic that I've often thought about as well, and I've come up with this side thought...

If I were to be locked inside of a room 10ft by 10ft, how would I cope? Not very well. I honestly feel that I would stress myself to the point of insanity and death, if kept in that enclosure for a long period of time. But, if all of my needs were met, why would I feel this way? A simple answer I came up with is because I know there's more out there that I just can't get to.

But what if I had been born in that 10ft by 10ft room, and had never been outside? Would I still want out, or would I be perfectly content? If I didn't know there was anymore out there... how would I know to want out if all of my needs were being met? I don't think I would want out, and I think that if I were taken out and placed... say in a shopping mall, that I would stress out from being so exposed.

It bothers me to think of wild caught animals being kept in small enclosures because they would possibly be aware of what they can't get to, but when it comes to a captive bred animal I really think that as long as their needs are met, then they can't miss what they haven't ever experienced. I hope that makes sense.

With the bearded dragons, a large portion of their length is made up of their tail. Body ratio wise, that 4ft enclosure is about 4 times the size of the dragon. I don't know how aware a beardie is of its tail at all times, so I can't really imagine whether or not it feels that the tank is twice as large or four times as large as he is. If only they could talk:main_laugh:

 

[Musilitar]

Oh wow that's some really interesting thoughts, thanks for sharing!
I can make my own mind up now, and I feel a lot more comfortable about getting a beardie now.
Thanks everybody, this still stays an interesting topic though.
And personally I will never get a wild caught animal exactly for that reason, they DO know that they could have had it better, and they do not cope well caged as for as I know (Which I know from other people so not completely sure about this)
I really love reptiles, the bug has bitten me, and I also find them so interesting, that is why I care so much, and less about cats or dogs, which are a totally different case since they do have more freedom.
Meh I'm just rambling I guess?
It's such a pity that reptiles have such a big taboo around them, and that they are treated so unfair!
They are making a list of allowed herps here in Belgium at the moment, and I'm curious to see the result.
It would be nice if more people posted their thoughts!
Greetings Lode

 

[acpart]

I already posted my thoughts about leopard geckos but I also have a beardie. Some people do have larger reptiles (beardies, iguanas) that roam free or live in a huge screened porch or cage. If I could do this I would. I do feel that a beardie needs more time to run around and attention than a leopard gecko and when I'm home during my beardie's awake time I do let her run through the living room and dining room. I also take her out on my upstairs porch when I'm there to supervise. That said, sometimes she runs around the area and explores and climbs on things, but more often she finds a nice area to hide under or a sunny place to bask and stays in one place.

Aliza

 

[downthebeatenpath]

Well most of the time I house my animals in cages that are bigger than the minimal cage requirements, my leo is in a 20 long all to herself, my Blue tongue skink I keep in a 75. So I don't feel too bad about it, and like stated earlier if they are CB I think they are used to it as oppossed to WC animals.If you are really worried about this, try to give your animal an enclosure bigger than the minimal size, I usually like to go 2-3 times bigger than the minimal size.

 

[Musilitar]

Yeah my leopard gecko is in a much bigger one than minimal, all by herself.
But for me, going over the minimum for a beardie by alot is hard because I only have my small room.
I am gonna go over it by as much as I have room for, but I cannot do the impossible.
Thanks for the idea of letting my beardie roam free if I get one!
Great idea!

 

[Gecko]

space is species specific. One reason som species do so poorly can be a space issue. For instance even small Uromastyx and some tortoises need a massive space to roam compared to the body size, while some things like some geckos do OK in a relatively small space.

 

[LadyGecko]

Thank you for the reply!
Those are some very interesting findings, and they helped me with this, thanks
I was more thinking about bigger reptiles though, because in my opinion leopard gecko's ratio are different, mine is in a tank by herself with plenty of room, but let's take the case of a Beardie, they get about 20 inch right? Well if you get a terrarium that is 40 inch long, which is pretty big, it's still only 2 times his length, my leopard gecko has 4 times her length.
If I wanted to do this for a Beardie I'd have to get an 80 inch cage?
I'm just looking for opinions on bigger lizards because I only have one leopard gecko I cannot post an opinion on this.
I have found that my gecko has enough room, and for some reason I do have much trouble with caging her, perhaps because she is so small.
But now I am looking to perhaps get a Beardie, and this whole captivity thing came to my head.
I still cannot think of a good reason to keep them caged.In my honest opinion excuses like: If I don't keep them someone else will anyway or they would die in the wild anyway are not relevant.
Anyone else has an opinion on this?
Greetings Lode

I would say that reason number one would be so that they do not get injured or stuck somewhere in your house where they cannot get back out and you can not get to them

I see nothing wrong with supervised free roaming-but I think that there are too many hazards in our homes for our reptiles to have the entire run of the house without us being able to keep an eye on them
Just my .-02

Sandy

 

[downthebeatenpath]

I would say that reason number one would be so that they do not get injured or stuck somewhere in your house where they cannot get back out and you can not get to them

I see nothing wrong with supervised free roaming-but I think that there are too many hazards in our homes for our reptiles to have the entire run of the house without us being able to keep an eye on them
Just my .-02

Sandy

I agree unless you set up a whole room like a cage, I know some people have done this for monitors and iguanas. And then "reptile-proof" everything in the room, then I wouldn't let them free-roam unsupervised.