What makes a GIANT??

[kkigs]

Is there really a "gene" that indicates a giant or not? No I don't believe so. I'm a firm believer that big gecko x big gecko gets you big geckos.

So you're saying that Ron Tremper and Steve Sykes are frauds?

By this rationale, we would have seen sizes increasing much more noticeably before 2002 (yes, I've been around that long, I bought my first leopards in 1996). I guarantee you that my 5 month old female that is nearly 70 grams is not the product of "big gecko x big gecko".

 

[Pinky81]

Great thread guys, thank you so much for all the info and opinions. Yes I do not know the genetics of my two...and am by no mean breeding and putting names to my babies or selling under any titles (just wanted to clarify that ) but I am trying to understand these genetics thing better. From all the info Im getting in this thread I have a few more questions.

You say if you breed a giant to a normal you get 50/50 giant normal. If in theory what i have is a giant (male) and normal (female) I should keep tabs on the growth rate of my hatchlings? Again is there a baseline growth rate that one could follow to see a trend? Also has anyone noticed a difference in egg size produced out of a giantXnormal?

I have noticed that Bonnie's egg size and shape have changed dramatically. first two clutches where fairly normal sized eggs...but the next two the eggs were well lack of a better word HUGE compared to the first two clutches and had a very different shape. I'll post a pic. Whats the thought on this...do hatchlings that will run the "giant" size hatch larger and in turn come out of larger eggs?

In the picture the eggs up top are already 2.5weeks old. The eggs on the bottom are fresh that day. They look so different and so much larger, and still are at this point. Also in this picture the top eggs are the same size as the clutch prior to them. Both those clutchs have one fertile and One not fertile eggs....the bottom eggs are both fertile and growing well.

 

[Jordan]

You say if you breed a giant to a normal you get 50/50 giant normal. If in theory what i have is a giant (male) and normal (female) I should keep tabs on the growth rate of my hatchlings? Again is there a baseline growth rate that one could follow to see a trend? Also has anyone noticed a difference in egg size produced out of a giantXnormal?

yup. Personally i think you should keep tabs on growth rate of your hatchlings even if giant isn't involved. Regular weighing helps you know who is growing as they should be.
If a baby is a giant, would definitely notice it growing faster and bigger than the other, within 4 - 6 months.
And i have found egg size doesn't mean a thing to be honest, big eggs can hatch small gecko's and vice versa, but this is what i've seen and i may be wrong, i've only beeen breeding 3 years. Others have been breeding a lot longer than me lol.

 

[fuzzylogix]

the thing about having 50/50 giants and normals is kind of misleading though. the probability is based on each egg. in other words, one female could lay 10 eggs in a season and they all hatch normal. it's just a probability, not a guarantee. i got two geckos from Bryan last year from the same clutch. they were both possible giants but one vastly outgrew the other. they were both incubated as female, but i ended up with a male Giant Mack Snow het Tremper and a female Super Snow het Tremper. the male at 6 months weighed almost 60 grams, the female was half that size.

 

[chachasushi]

The thing with Giants is that you don't really know what the offspring are going to be until they are adults.

I personally judge by growth rate based on who the parents were. Since Giant is codominant and I know the genetics of my breeders, I can gauge my expectations. But even still, if it's under a year old I can only call it "possible Giant" or "Giant/Supergiant" if I sell it as a hatchling or juvenile.

There are always exceptions and it's variable. There are a lot of factors that determine adult size and weight and genetic lineage is only part of the equation. These days you have be careful how you breed and market Giants. I can stand behind my breeders, my results over the years and the original stock from the "big name" breeders in the industry, but I still NEVER guarantee anything when it comes to the adult size of a genetic giant/super giant.

 

[Pinky81]

the thing about having 50/50 giants and normals is kind of misleading though. the probability is based on each egg. in other words, one female could lay 10 eggs in a season and they all hatch normal. it's just a probability, not a guarantee. i got two geckos from Bryan last year from the same clutch. they were both possible giants but one vastly outgrew the other. they were both incubated as female, but i ended up with a male Giant Mack Snow het Tremper and a female Super Snow het Tremper. the male at 6 months weighed almost 60 grams, the female was half that size.

Thank you this does make sense to me. I will say this Ive had both my two since they were just a few weeks old...and at first Bonnie FAR out did Clyde on wieght and length, but Clyde passed her up real fast. But again guys thanks so much for the info.

 

[im faster]

Giant (Gi) Locus
Gi+Gi+ = Wild-typeGi+gig = Giantgiggig = Super GiantGiant and Super Giant
A unique mutation uncovered by Ron Tremper. This mutation is unique in that it has no effect on color, but is instead the first known mutation controlling overall size and body configuration. Additionally, it has recently proven incomplete dominant - the first such mutation discovered in Leopard Geckos.
Sadly, the true genetic nature of this mutation was not fully understood at first and this has caused quite a bit of confusion surrounding them in the marketplace. Originally thought a simple recessive gene, with 'heterozygous' specimens sold for rather high prices during the first years. Being a codominant mutation, there is no such thing as a 'het' in the classic sense, leading many breeders working with 'hets' to believe the mutation was not real. The simple truth was that many of their specimens were in fact completely normal!
Since the mode of inheritance of codominant mutations is so poorly understood by most Leopard Gecko keepers, I'll attempt to explain it here in some detail:
With regard to the Giant mutation and it's effect on appearance, Leopard Geckos can exists in three possible genetic states: Normal (no mutated alleles present), Giant (one mutated allele present) and Super Giant (two mutated alleles present).
1) Normal specimens (no mutated alleles present), are of course, just that - completely normal in every way. They exhibit no characteristics of the Giant mutation, nor can they be heterozygous for Giant.
2) Giant specimens (one mutated allele present) can get somewhat larger than normals, although this varies, and many exhibit the elongated 'lanky' appearance caused by the mutated allele. Strictly speaking, these are in fact heterozygous and typical rules of inheritance apply when breeding them - the only thing different here is that such heterozygous specimens can now be spotted visually, something that cannot be done with simple recessive mutations!
3) Super Giants (two mutated alleles present) show even more of these effects, growing quite large (specimens weighing over 180gms are known) and exhibiting such an elongated and lanky appearance that even the snout is noticeably longer and more pointed. These are in fact homozygous, and typical rules of inheritance apply when breeding them.
It must be mentioned here that there is a range of variation in the overall effect caused by this mutation, and it is near impossible to separate the various types visually with any degree of certainty. In a mixed bag of all three types, most of the supers can be quickly separated, as can many of the normals. But the remainder will consist of a mixture of specimens that could be either normal or Giant; Giant or Super Giant.
Thus, it is important to fully understand the mode of inheritance as knowledge of the predicted outcomes of various crosses can greatly simplify sorting out the results. Perhaps the following will help:
Normal x Normal yields all Normal offspring.Normal x Giant yields half Normal, half Giant offspring.Normal x Super Giant yields all Giant offspring.Giant x Giant yields 1/4 Normal, 1/2 Giant, 1/4 Super Giant offspring.Giant x Super Giant yields 1/2 Giant, 1/2 Super Giant offspring.Super Giant x Super Giant yields all Super Giant offspring.Additional outside factors can also influence the growth and size of these specimens. Specimens out-crossed to various other morphs can be affected by the size typically achieved by that particular strain (some morphs can run larger than others, and this has it's effect too). Plus normal factors such as nutrition and environmental conditions can have their effect on the size achieved by any individual specimen. Let's face it, a runt is a runt, even if carrying the Giant gene, the thing ain't magic. Topping all of this off is that it seems the Giants commonly grow at a slower rate than other types, and many of ours have taken two years to achieve full size and are still growing, albeit slowly.

www.VMSherp.com

 

[M_surinamensis]

... not cool.

 

[kkigs]

... not cool.

Yeah, Mr. Faster should probably at least give credit to the author if he's going to copy and paste something... For those that don't know, the above genetic description is from VMSHerp.com. Sean has the most comprehensive breakdown of reptile genetics to be found pretty much anywhere.

 

[im faster]

Geez.. i was posting from my phone..

i was suprised i was able to do that even

 

[eyelids]

big gecko x big gecko gets you big geckos.

This is my standpoint as well... Someone tried to make 'Giant' Bells... Did not really pan out from what I've seen posted here...

 

[Designer Geckos]

The Giants/Super Giants can be determined of course by parents....SGxSG = 100%SG. But they can often be told early on as young juvies to the experienced breeder.

When I met with Ron T at his facility last year, we were going through a lot of tubs and checking out several morphs. When Ron's manager opened a tub full of baby Giants, there was one that really jumped out at me because of its outstanding color. It was a bright yellow Sunglow with very bright CT. It was a very young gecko, about 25-30g. When I asked Ron if I could buy it from him, he picked it up and looked at it and said, yep, this will be a Super Giant. His manager agreed. Ron sold it to me. Guess what? A year later that gecko is 140grams and is massive. They knew by looking at him at a young age that he would be SG.

When you work with a lot of Giants you can tell early on based on growth rate, head size, and tail length what they will be. Remember that Ron works with hundreds of Giants every year, so he has that trained eye. Those of us who have smaller numbers of them are not quite as astute, though some of us are learning to discern all this. Tail length is often key, as is appetite and of course head size.

For those who think these are just big geckos....when you look at a Giant or SG at 1 year you see a dramatic difference in head size compared to just a "large" gecko, particularly so in the males.

And if anyone still has doubts, go check out a mature Super Giant male and hold it. These are not just "large" geckos. It is a very distinct animal. I bought a Godzilla baby from Steve. He is now 12 inches long, 165 grams, and is still growing. He looks like a small alligator, not a gecko! He's not just a "large" gecko.

Cool thread.



Here's a pic of T Rex, son of Godzilla.

 

[Pinky81]

Ray that picture is flippin awesome!!! Thank you for the reply! Is that the SG you bought from Ron?? If so how old is that gek?

 

[Designer Geckos]

Ray that picture is flippin awesome!!! Thank you for the reply! Is that the SG you bought from Ron?? If so how old is that gek?

The male shown in that pic is the SG son of Godzilla from Steve (first baby ever released from Godzilla). He is now 18 months old and will grow up till 2 years, so we are hoping he will be the biggest gecko in the world by then. His dad is around 170 grams.

He was eating mealies and crickets when younger but now is strictly on mealies.

The SG Sunglow from Ron is posted on our site.

I love leos of all sizes, but there's something special about the Giants. They are all really mellow, and when you hold a gecko that is massive like an SG you can't help but be in awe.

Fun with geckos........

 

[PetVet]

This is a great thread Very educational, great job everyone.
I was wondering though, I know with humans, height is a continuous trait giving a wide range of possible heights to the offspring. Is the same true for leopard geckos (minus Gs & SGs)? And if that is the case, do Giants & SGs just have a mutation that is specific to the height or is it perhaps a nutritional mutation allowing absorption of specific vitamins which allow higher weights and lengths to be reached?

 

[M_surinamensis]

Geez.. i was posting from my phone..

i was suprised i was able to do that even

Still not cool. You may want to look up the limitations inherent in Fair Use laws. You're really not allowed to steal a chunk of someone else's writing and just shove it wherever you want without any further alterations. You didn't satirize it, it wasn't posted as part of your own work reviewing it; you need to either get permission from the author or take it down entirely.

 

[im faster]

seriously GTFO..

i clearly wasnt claiming it as my own..

i dont need permission to do repost information.

if i was publishing it to make a profit or benifited it in some way then you can say something till then.. get over it..

 

[M_surinamensis]

seriously GTFO..

i clearly wasnt claiming it as my own..

i dont need permission to do repost information.

if i was publishing it to make a profit or benifited it in some way then you can say something till then.. get over it..

http://fairuse.stanford.edu/Copyright_and_Fair_Use_Overview/index.html

You'll especially want the sections on Fair Use (which explain why your post doesn't qualify) and the section on Website Permissions (transferring information to and from a Website), which explain why your post makes you liable and why you could potentially get Kelli in some trouble too.

Stop behaving like a child and just take it down. While it's down, email the site owner and ask for their permission to include it in the discussion. If they grant it, then repost it. In the meantime, just leave the link up.

 

[bluenosebully6]

I tend to disagree with some of the posts. A giant line originates from an ancestor that was essentially just a large Leo. As in all species of animals including humans if u breed a large animal to another large animal.the offspring will be large. If u have two seven foot people they're gonna have tall kids same thing with snakes, lions, etc. A giant line is just a controlled inbreeding of large leos whereas other leos that.fit the same criteria could be considered.naturally occurring giants. If weight and length determine a giant its hypocritical to say another.Leo of equal or.greater.size isn't a giant imo......

 

[Pinky81]

I tend to disagree with some of the posts. A giant line originates from an ancestor that was essentially just a large Leo. As in all species of animals including humans if u breed a large animal to another large animal.the offspring will be large. If u have two seven foot people they're gonna have tall kids same thing with snakes, lions, etc. A giant line is just a controlled inbreeding of large leos whereas other leos that.fit the same criteria could be considered.naturally occurring giants. If weight and length determine a giant its hypocritical to say another.Leo of equal or.greater.size isn't a giant imo......

I think in essence saying breeding giants or breeding big Leo's is the same thing really if you get right down too it. A person who is very tall is that way due to genetics, and Leo that is big is essentially that way due to genetics. If a 7 foot tall person and a 5ft tall person create a child then you have a chance of a very tall kid, a shorter kid, or a average sized kid.

its all genetics regardless of species, just depends on how you wanna label it.