Worried. Can someone help?

[Cristianna]

:help::helpuring this past Daytona Show, August 21-22, I bought a leopard gecko from Reptile Addicts. At first he seemed to be doing fine but after about 2 months, he started getting lethargic, started walking funny, wouldn't eat, and started losing weight. When I had someone look at him, they said it was metabolic bone disease and I should soak him in calcium and water. I did for about 2 weeks and he got better. Just a few days ago, it started again. Only this time he seems to be getting worse. He can barely hold his head up and every now and then, I see a little bit of loose stool. What should I do? I love my little guy and I want to help him get better.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I think this would be the pointin time hon that you consider taking him to a herp vet just to be certain there is no underlying infections or parasite invasions. MBD can be blamed for a few things like movement, physical malformations and the like but when you see a depressed leo that doesn't want to move, has no interest in food etc, I think there's more involved. What's your set up like? Temps, heating source(s)? Substrait, supplimentation methods etc? Also any idea on the age or morph of your leo?

 

[Cristianna]

According to Reptile Addicts, he is 2 and is just a normal leo. I have in a 20 gal with calicsand, a hide rock, a shallow water dish and a small thing of calcium that he has access to at all times. I keep the cage at about 85 during the day and about 74-75 at night. I am also using a heat lamp. When he eats, he eats about 10 crickets a day and loves it.

I should have known better than to get him from Reptile Addicts. They are not very good but when I sw my leo, I fell in love with him He's beautiful.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Ok few things here. First and MAJOR is your temps are way too LOW. minimum hot side temps of between 90-93 optimum range. Use a under tank heater to achieve this. It'll likely work best. Put a hide directly over the uth for your hot spot. Make sure you have a heat probe directly on the floor of the tank right over the uth, to monitor your temps. You can use a ceramic heat emitter, infra red or night light "moon light" bulb to make up any short comings you may have from the heat mat. Basking and UV lights serve no help to leos and can actually stress these nocturnal babies out. The temp issues in your tank could account for A LOT of the lethargy you're seeing. Imagine hypothermia, you slow down, systems shut down, you start to literally freeze. You don't eat, you don't move, everything your lil leo is showing us.

Next, I HATE sand for substrait, they can ingest it when they eat their prey and it can build up and cause an impaction. Not good. Imo even if it is calcisand. Could be why there is appatite and possibly stool issues. Many people use and recommend either plain white paper towels, or tiles insted for a good safe substrait. repti carpet can harbor a lot of bacteria if not properly maintained and little claws and teeth can get stuck in it causing serious injury. There's some pix in my user profile photo albums that show a tank done up naturally with 12x12 simulated slate vinyl tiles. Something else is in a 20 long, that's a LOT of wide open space. You really should have 3 hides minimum imo. 1 hot side, 1 cool side, and 1 moist hide somewhere in the middle (topic of debate here). Too few hides in that much space could stress him out and depress the system.

If he's eating 10 crickets a day it doesn't sound like appitite is impacted, BUT for his age, he shouldn't be eating THAT much. Maybe 6-ish crickets every 3 days, insted of every day. Alsy vary the feeders you give him. Here is a good list of feeder nutritional values just so you can compare crickets to other mass available foods which are IMO better (I feed super worms, many do mealies). https://www.thebugdepot.com/nutrition.htm if he's eating that much and not growing or gaining a lot of weight you might want to have a fecal test done to make sure there is no parasite problem. Often when you see killer appitite and no body condition to go with that kinda food intake the first thing I think is parasites.

If you can post pix of your beauty I'd love to see him. IDK who Reptile Addicts are but I'm gonna see what I can find... ya got my curiosity up... wonder if it's a mass herp seller like pet co or the like. lastly hon, there's some really good care sheets in the stickies, heck it has it's own tab PLEASE start digging into them, also the health and nutrition sections are faublous on this forum. Read all ya can :main_yes:

 

[Cristianna]

Sorry about the late response. I used a under tank heater to try and make the hot side a bit hotter. So instead of sand I should use paper towels or tiles? Where can I get those?? The tiles I mean. Not that paper towels.

I have him in a 20 long because he is too big for a 10. I have some pictures of him and my female up. Which is another reason I have him in a 20 long. But for a male, he is pretty big. I have two hide spots in there. One in the cool, one in the hot. I will have to put another in there.

I started to think it was parasites and treated for it just to be safe. I don't know how long it is supposed to take until he get better if it is a parasite problem. So hopefully, if it is, then it's been taken care of.

I can't find the site for Reptile Addicts but I know they are based in New York. They are not good people. I bought two snakes from them some time back and they were way too aggressive. I couldn't pick them up and not too long after getting them, they died.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Yeah I did some searching on them and found another forum that had a link about their doings. Pretty sure it was the same people. I would add the humid hide just to make sure you don't have any shed problems. I got my tiles at home depot. They sell they singly or by the box. for a 20 long you'd need 3 (it actually takes 2 and a half but... ). I think a lot of the lethargic issue is lack of proper heat honestly. Get him up to 93 and see if that helps him recover. A lot can go wrong when they're cold, healing time, metabolism, I mean everything. If you just dewormed him what did you use, for how long and how long ago was it? If you used panacure (fenbendiazole) you need a 3 day course, and depending on worm load, repeat in 10-15 days (depending on the condition of the animal, if hes weak and manourished wait 15 days) for another 3 day course. Usually (with dogs anyway) after the initial 3 day dose you start to see immediate response to the parasite dying off, proper appitite, energy, and waste processes. Deworming takes a bit more out of a leo than a dog so it may take upwards of a month mayabe before you start seeing any change in his condition, not just from working out the parasite but also recovering from the deworming meds as well (not that panacure is that dangerous. It's actually very difficult to overdose (again in dogs at least) with it).

Make sure you're taking all the proper sanatizing precautions with your hands, common utensils, etc since you do have another gecko you could spred any illness he has to her. Obviously don't want that

 

[gothra]

I started to think it was parasites and treated for it just to be safe. I don't know how long it is supposed to take until he get better if it is a parasite problem. So hopefully, if it is, then it's been taken care of.

Please do not attempt to treat anything unless you know exactly what is wrong with your gecko. How do you know that he is infected with heavy loads of whichever parasite without having a qualified person checking? Not all parasites can be treated with panacure.

If you suspect he has MBD, soaking in calcium water will not help. Your best bet is to take him to a vet, and find out exactly what the problem is. Being lethargic can be a sign to some serious problem.

 

[LZRDGRL]

I would take a fresh stool sample (even if it's loose or liquid) and get it to a vet as soon as possible. Ask for a fecal stain/smear only; that's about USD 16-23. If you take your leo in for an exam, that's about USD 75-125, and during the first exam, the vet probably won't find anything he/she couldn't tell from a fecal sample.

Loose stool is a sign of parasites, not MBD. You can give your leo Panacur for pinworms only, but if he has different parasites like protozoae (flagellates, giardia, etc.), that won't help at all! Self-medication doesn't work here. The vet can tell you in a few minutes what kind of parasite it is by looking in a microscope, and will give you the right medicine and explain dosage. A few syringes of Flagyl are just five bucks, for example. Right dosage is VERY important, since 0.1 ml too much can kill a gecko because some medicines are extremely hard on its liver.

If you keep your gecko on paper towel right now (which you should), and the stool soaks in, you can use a trick by placing some alu foil in his favorite poopy corner (*sorry*), and catch it this way to take to the vet. You can put it in a jar with a lid on in the fridge if you collect it at a time the vet is not open, and keep it for under 12 hours. It'll stay fresh and not dry up this way.

If your gecko had MBD, it would have bended legs and walk on its wrists or elbows. It would also get a soft jaw and have trouble eating. You would see that.

It sounds more like impaction from having been on the wrong substrate, or parasites. The bigger your gecko is, the better his chances of survival. 2 years sounds very good. A baby might not make it.

Good luck!! If he's not eating voluntarily, you might try waxworms or dropping some drops of slurry on his nose.

Chrissy

 

[mayyam]

I definitely agree about taking it to a vet.
From what I understand Reptile Addicts owned by Fred kick and his brother are wholesale distributors. They go to tons of shows and many people have problems with sick animals. One of the problems is that many of them are wild caught. several customers have complained about mites, parasites, and other problems.

Its very possible that your gecko can have several things wrong with it, which need to be properly diagnosed before they can be treated.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Please, no more negative discussion about a specific company, it is against TOS and our mods will issue warnings. Fauna classifieds allows this type discussion.

Christianna, you really need a qualified herp vet to advise you for a properly diagnosed treatment plan. ASAP.

 

[Cristianna]

I took him to the best reptile vet in the state and he said that he doesn't know what's wrong with my leo. In the end, it didn't matter what I did to help him get better...my leo died yesterday from a virus or something in his brain. I thank everyone for their advice and help.

 

[LZRDGRL]

Oh, so sorry! If you want another leo some time, get it from a breeder here on the forums, someone you know and trust. Then, you have a warranty that your gecko is healthy, and you will receive customer support even after you got it if anything happens. Wait until winter is over and it becomes warm enough for shipping. Summer is the best time to buy leos since that's when they're hatching, and supply is large and demand relatively lower. It's always good to check out the websites of breeders first, too.

Good luck the next time! Don't worry too much; such things happen. It wasn't your fault. I also had a gecko baby die a couple of days after the show I got it from. Might be due to mass keeping, to parasites, to wrong substrate, or stress/injuries from transport... who knows. The good thing is one learns a lot and gets ready and prepared for the next one :main_thumbsup:

Chrissy

 

[M_surinamensis]

It wasn't your fault.

...

She had it for months and was not meeting its necessary husbandry requirements.

Not hours, not days, not DOA or diagnosed forty eight hours after purchase... months.

There is no possible way this can be shoved off on the supplier, wholesaler or not. It is absurd, just flat out ridiculous, to see someone else being blamed and her being told it is not her fault. She needs to acknowledge her mistakes in order to learn from them, part of that means taking responsibility for keeping animal in conditions that can kill it for a couple months straight. It is very much her fault- doesn't make her a bad person, just a culpable one. If she knows it was her fault then she's unlikely to repeat the mistakes that led to this gecko dying... but if everyone wants to line up to help her point the finger at the big bad wholesaler, then she'll just keep right on subjecting new animals to the same negligent conditions.

 

[GeckoGurl]

Sorry about your loss

 

[fl_orchidslave]

The advice offered early on in this thread was to consult a vet with a poop sample for testing. That should have been done, along with a general checkup the vet would have performed at that time. A leo can go down very fast if not treated for some conditions. It is at the end of their lives that symptoms often become painfully apparent. At that point there is little a vet can do to save it.

There is a difference in animal resellers and breeders. Breeders have a vested interest in the health of their animals as, they have raised them out of the egg, know the parents, and have spent numerous hours caring for the little tot to insure it will be a healthy pet for someone. Resellers buy groups of animals in 'as is' condition (wildcaught too) for the purpose of making a profit on its' sale. Nothing wrong with that- it's also how many species we keep in captivity have been introduced to the pet trade. But as a consumer it is our responsibility to know who we are buying from, it is our choice in the end. The original poster stated a problem with a previous purchase from the same vendor. So why buy from them again and speak ill of them when it doesn't turn out well? Was there not a red flag? We need to accept responsibility and learn from mistakes to move forward.

I will say it again, any negativity toward a specific vendor needs to be directed to fauna classifieds. They have a section for that. Not here.

 

[M_surinamensis]

There is a difference in animal resellers and breeders. Breeders have a vested interest in the health of their animals as, they have raised them out of the egg, know the parents, and have spent numerous hours caring for the little tot to insure it will be a healthy pet for someone. Resellers buy groups of animals in 'as is' condition (wildcaught too) for the purpose of making a profit on its' sale. Nothing wrong with that- it's also how many species we keep in captivity have been introduced to the pet trade. But as a consumer it is our responsibility to know who we are buying from, it is our choice in the end. The original poster stated a problem with a previous purchase from the same vendor. So why buy from them again and speak ill of them when it doesn't turn out well? Was there not a red flag? We need to accept responsibility and learn from mistakes to move forward.

I disagree with some of your choices of language but that may just be a bit of a semantic and tonal argument, the thrust of your point is dead on.

Consumer responsibility seems to be something that is rapidly disappearing. Consumers who educate themselves on their needs and actively select a product that best meets their requirements used to be something that was, to some degree, expected. It was followed up by some expectation that consumers would have the ability to use the product they had just purchased in an appropriate manner.

When it comes to animals that would mean a consumer who knows their own level of experience and chooses their pets appropriately; knowing if they are capable of doing a little bit of cleanup on an imported/wholesale animal or if they need high end CB in pristine condition. It means not subjecting an animal to suboptimal conditions and then being surprised when it dies. It means comprehending the difference between things which they are responsible for and things that someone else is guilty of and not pointing fingers inappropriately.

In this case, it ties in to some things I really dislike about the way the pet consumer treats the pet industry. The idea that a wholesaler is automatically some filthy greedy scumbucket and a breeder is some pristine and perfect angel is not only offensive but it is blatantly wrong. Individuals are what matter, specific case by case determinations about quality, honesty and value. I know a few flippers who I wouldn't trust any further than I could throw them... and then I also know a few wholesalers that work their asses off cleaning up animals to get them into a decent condition after they buy them from some hack incompetent "breeder" that managed to stumble into egg production. I know breeders who maintain lab quality conditions and who show as much expertise as it is possible to show in their chosen interest... and I know breeders who lie, cheat, steal and manage to kill more animals than they sell. Every level, every job or position or business model in the pet industry has its own good people and bad people. It is unfair to label one job as "good" and one as "bad" categorically without knowing the individual.

I have no idea if the business, which should not have been named here the way it was, is a good one or not. At this point, on this forum, I don't really care either. I will say this though- someone who bought an animal, kept it in poor conditions for months and then killed it is not in a position to prove anything one way or the other. The responsibility shifts as time advances, the fault stops lying with the vendor and starts to lay squarely on the shoulders of the owner. Months later, about the only thing a vendor is responsible for is genetics.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

Yes, there are indeed good and bad on both sides of the coin, I just didn't go into a lot of detail on that.

 

[roger]

:help::helpuring this past Daytona Show, August 21-22, I bought a leopard gecko from Reptile Addicts. At first he seemed to be doing fine but after about 2 months, he started getting lethargic, started walking funny, wouldn't eat, and started losing weight. When I had someone look at him, they said it was metabolic bone disease and I should soak him in calcium and water. I did for about 2 weeks and he got better. Just a few days ago, it started again. Only this time he seems to be getting worse. He can barely hold his head up and every now and then, I see a little bit of loose stool. What should I do? I love my little guy and I want to help him get better.

if u intend on getting another leo i would suggest getting it off sand and also the temps were too low for the leo.IMO it was more of a husbundry issue than a breeder issue.it was fine u said for a couple of months.Sad to see leos suffer

 

[Spots]

first of all, sorry for your loss. It's always hard to see a pet go and not understanding exactly what happened.

second, she had it for about 3 months, two of which she said the gecko seemed fine. She should have taken it to the vet ASAP but sometimes you wonder if you are just over reacting to the situation. Her husbandry was off, but being a new owner, there is so much information out there. It is a continuous learning process. I will admit that I got my first gecko from a pet store chain...not knowing that that is not the best option. I was told/sold a heat lamp, sand, lights, etc. you name it, I got it. Even the books in the store told me to keep them on sand (My second gecko, even the breeder told me to keep the new baby on sand!) So sometimes we are given information, or research information, that may not be correct. She was a new owner. When I was a new owner, I did not get a UTH until probably 6 months - 1 year after my frist gecko (I was smart enough to not get sand tho but not smart enough to not get carpet) because the books and pet store kept telling me I did not need the UTH. Eventually I found this forum (checked out a few others but did not like them) and drastically changed everything in her cage. She was out and about for another year after, everything was great, and one day I woke up and saw her pale and lathargic. Ran her to the vet several times but passed away and I still do not know why she passed away. So as much as I usually love your debates and insights on this forum, M_surinamensis, I think you need to just tone it down a bit. It could very well have been an underlying problem or just a fluke. It could have been born with something that caused it's death. So to say that it is very well her fault, is very subjective. I just think there are better ways to point your view. Yes, we should stop blaming the deaths on suppliers but we should also be nice enough to not put the entire blame on this owner. Now that the leo has passed, we can help her to get the research needed for another pet in the future if she wishes to have one, but I just don't think you can tell someone that it was entirely their fault in a situation like this, especially after she is probably grieving after her loss. Unless she down right killed it, drowned it, stepped on it, etc. you have no evidence to say that it was her fault without a doubt that it could not have been something else.