Zorro Mandarin double hets and Mandarin Tang Enigma

[Designer Geckos]

Here is an updated pic of two females from our new Zorro Mandarin Bandit project. By breeding the Zorro Bandit line with the Mandarin Tang line, we get these sort of "double hets" that aren't true hets but act like them in breeding. So next season we will breed these "hets" to produce orange Bandits, complete with masks.

Even these are very pretty, with lots of color and nice markings, but the next generation will start to exhibit the real result we are looking for.

Here is an outdoor/daylight head shot of our Mandarin Tangerine Enigma female we produced this year from Manny and Venus. This super colorful girl has zero Enigma issues and is holding her color very well....she eats like a horse and is getting big now. We will breed her back to Mandarin next year.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Wow. I can't wait to see next year's results. Those are amazing

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Nice geckos Ray, but I'm confused on the "het" part. What are they het for? Now maybe I'm crazy, but I'm pretty sure that Bandits and Tangerines aren't recessive! LOL! Feel free to set me straight brother!

 

[Thorgecko707]

Nice geckos Ray, but I'm confused on the "het" part. What are they het for? Now maybe I'm crazy, but I'm pretty sure that Bandits and Tangerines aren't recessive! LOL! Feel free to set me straight brother!

I get confused on that all the time. Or "het RRS and acid stripe". I've never heard of those genes. Maybe it means they carry the genetics to make those?

 

[pmkent1]

:main_thumbsup::main_thumbsup:

 

[Designer Geckos]

I've talked with Ron about this in the past. "Double het" meaning acting like hets for Bandit and Tang. This project has not been done by anyone to our knowledge so we'll have to see how the outcome works out. Ron has been working with Tang Bandits as well.

We have produced many of these so called "double hets" this year. Lucky laid 7 clutches of them in just her first year, plus we have used other pairings. We are keeping the ones that look the most like the result we are trying to get. Some look more Tang, some more Bandit. The best results, as pictured, were from Lucky with Mandarin. Those are the ones we will breed next year and we will release the others for people who wish to try to produce these on their own. It may turn out that the ones we release will produce the best results! Uncharted waters here, but my gut says that we will get some nice orange Bandits from these at some point down the road.

 

[kkigs]

Yeah Chris, Bandit and that particular tangerine are polygenetic. Of course, strong featured specimens like the original parents are likely to throw off some nice offspring like what is pictured, but they are not "het" in the usual sense. It's still a line breeding, selective breeding approach that is going to produce the most consistent results through generations. Ray is starting with exceptional animals, which should expedite the process. I have a SG bold mack snow from Ron that does not look Bandit. Ron told me his dad was a bandit, though, and several of his offspring this year have decent masks, a couple even have true bandit masks, so the potential is definitely there.

 

[Designer Geckos]

Here's a pic of a Tang Bandit Ron gave us a couple years ago. I really liked the look so we decided to try to make these now using the Zorro/Mandarin genes. The contrast with the orange and lav is really striking in person, and this gecko has maintained the lavender even till today.

What's really a strange coincidence is that this gecko's head markings are almost identical to the young female het shown in this thread.

 

[holdthis8t]

Nice.... I mean real nice.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I've talked with Ron about this in the past. Double het meaning het for Bandit and Tang.

Again, how can they be het if they are polygenetic/line bred morphs? I understand what you are doing, I'm doing a similar project with Bandits myself, but none of mine are "het" for anything. They either express the traits quite well (high grade) or they express them only a little (low grade). Of course, like yourself, I'm keeping the best examples to improve on it next year. I just don't want people who don't understand genetics completely thinking that Bandits or Tangerines are recessive and that normal looking geckos can be "het" for them. Technically the geckos you posted are "Mandarin Bandits", maybe not the best examples, but they are Mandarin Bandits nonetheless and not really het for anything. :main_thumbsup:

 

[DrCarrotTail]

Hmmm I'm kind of new at all this gecko genetics stuff but not genetics in general. I translated "double het" in my brain as it as the dominant hypo gene was repeated so the gecko wasn't recessive for a wild type? But that would make it homozygous and which I guess would be like using "double het" like a double negative...

I would agree with WildWest that line-bred traits can't be heterozygous unless they have a recessive counterpart that isn't shown in the phenotype or in some other way have a 50% chance of throwing a specific trait if paired with a homozygous animal.

 

[ARabidToeanail]

have you bread a manderin to a sunglow, say one of uban geckos bloodlines?? ied be real interested to see what it turned out to be

 

[ARabidToeanail]

sorry ment urban geckos

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

They look very nice Ray.

This is as double het as a Galaxy is a new morph. Sorry Ray but either Ron told you wrong or you misunderstood. When it is first generation crosses they are going to be just low grades of the cross. Put 3-4 years in that cross then release them to the market as Mandarin Bandits. Polygenetic combos take lots of time.

 

[Designer Geckos]

I agree. This was confusing to me too! It is common knowledge that Bandits and Tangs are not true recessives. By "het" he means that in breeding they act as hets....why we put hets in quotes.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Even then I wouldn't say they act like recessive either. You can breed a Tangerine to a normal and get tangerine influenced or low grade tangs. Bandits also just derived from Ron's "designer" line and is affiliated with Bold Stripe and HM as well. I do not work with Bandits...but MAYBE they would be ones to act recessive. For instance...Bold Stripes (imo) the Bold acts Polygenetic and the Stripe acts Polygenetic with recessive tendencies. But if I bred a Bold Stripe to a normals I wouldn't call it a dbl het.

I am not head hunting you Ray, but I think it doesn't do any good by labeling it as dbl het. (except for marketing purposes) and only raises questions for others. Personally if I were you, I would let Ron label them as dbl hets and face the questions and doubt and you label it what YOU believe them to be.

They are nice looking geckos so I do hope you put a few years into the project before you release them. Otherwise the project will never have a set direction and just become another mud project.

 

[Thorgecko707]

I can see where Travis and Ray are coming from but wouldn't it be more correct to say "carries genes" instead of "het"? Travis, even you have het acrid stripes and het RRS. And I see "het funky jungle" everywhere now. I don't see how any of these traits can be hets. I get confused with all these new morphs. Lol. I do think a tangerine with bandit will look amazing next year and the following years.

 

[Designer Geckos]

All Ron means by "acting like hets" is that the first Bandit/Tang cross doesn't really show up that well as a good representation of an orange Bandit.....and this is very similar to het breeding of course. But the subsequent generations start to exhibit more of the Bandit qualities, masks, bold markings etc. He has been working on these for 4 years so I think he has a pretty good idea as to what he is talking about.

As for me spending years developing them, I already have spent a lot of time refining these lines to produce Zorros and Mandarins to the quality that they are. Now we are just doing the cross, which I think will result in really nice looking Bandits. Bottom line is let's have fun and do the best we can to learn, grow the hobby, and not be too critical about others viewpoints, or mistakes......respect all breeders, big and small.....we all know what a tremendous amount of work and time this all is.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

I have listed some of our RRS stuff as hets. However, ask ANYONE who has contacted me about them and you will see I have explained everything in full detail and explained how RRS works. I am not saying Bandit can not be labeled as "het" since I have not put forth work into them...but Tangerine...come on now.

Ray - I am not here to debate how long you have been breeding and refining things. However, the first year you cross anything into something else...it is from scratch and a F1. You can have the nicest Tang and nicest Snow and cross them and get crap Creamsicles. This is not an attack or disrespect to you or any breeder of any size...just clarification on whats going on in these geckos. No need to have the last few sentences. Of course we all know the effort to get top shelf morphs. I am sorry if this offends you but this is F1 (bottom ground) for THIS morph/cross. The two morphs individually are nice and respectable though.

This is not about Ron so I won't comment on anything about him.

 

[eyelids]

rt clone 2.0