big question here on Las Vegas or " rainwater"

[Gecko Euphoria]

Was just accused of not knowing my stock because I posted some leos on classifieds as Las Vegas Albino instead of Rainwater. I've been breeding this line for at least 4 years and been breeding over 11 years and never had anyone tell me that. Kind of was a slam. When did Las Vegas albino become the wrong name for the gecko line or become a no no to use under those genes I bought from Garrick Demyer under that name the guy who found the line. Really I dont think me calling my stock Las Vegas Albinos or Rain Water albino really matter they are the same thing and Las Vegas was what the original lines were sold to me as, tell me I'm wrong and why it matters really? Do people tell Tremper to start calling Tremper albino something else or Bell albinos another name no sorry!! I'm old fashioned and it's hard to keep up with all the talk especially when you been calling things something for so long, Last I checked Garrick still sells his LV Blizzards as LVBB's never seen them ran as RWBB's. Really what does it matter? I never bought them under the name Rainwater although they are the same, I bought them under the name Las vegas so I'm sorry but I rather like sticking with the original name they were sold to me as so many years ago Any advice would be helpful!!! I'm gonna have to talk with Garrick and get his opinion. Sorry for the passion I just don't like being told that I don't know my stock, I think that I'd know my stock after so long!!!

 

[Brewboy74]

From the Leopard Gecko Wiki......

"Rainwater or Las Vegas Albinos were founded by Tim Rainwater in 1998. When compaired to the other two strains of albinos, Rainwater Albinos tend to have more pink and be lighter overall. When they hatch, they tend to have yellow bodies with pink bands. As a group, Rainwater Albinos are smaller than the other two strains. Rainwaters also have the darkest eyes of the three different types of albinos."

I think Rainwater is as you mentioned the new term but both are applicable.

 

[Gecko Euphoria]

just checked wiki

There's still Las Vegas line under there, I just want to know why and who decides when to change names of leopard geckos? I dont mind doing it but you cant say people dont know their stock if they are not up on the scuttle but a few people decide? If it's the way it is then so be it, as long as the name Las Vegas albino is still used by some how can anyone say it's wrong i think the proper thing would be education that the two names are actually just different ways of saying the same thing wouldn't that be easier than changing names on something that some people call this and others call that no ones right or wrong in my opinion. But who decides is my question? I just feel offended by the fact that someone would accuse me of not knowing my stock because I use the name Las Vegas albino for describing that gene. I want to know what people think on this subject as I must be way out of the loop.

 

[Brewboy74]

I think its someone trying to get a rise out of you.

I haven't been around long enough to know when or why it changed but I have been around long enough to have learned that they are the same.

 

[robin]

There's still Las Vegas line under there, I just want to know why and who decides when to change names of leopard geckos? p.

a while back tim rainwater was accused of taking some peoples monies. it left a bad taste in some peoples mouths and they started calling them las vegas albinos ( it caught on) instead of rainwaters. but if it makes for anything sometimes trempers are refered to as texas strain and bells as florida strain. personally i use the term rainwater, bell and tremper, but that is my choice just because you use las vegas instead of rainwater docent make you not know your stock

p.s. i think some of the wiki info isnt quite accurate just my opinion. do not quote it as fact, or the law or bible or final word.

 

[Gecko Euphoria]

I agree with what all of you have said. I know Tim Rainwater came out with the Rain water, and Garrick is who I got my originals from years ago and Tremper's bible which is a Bible in my opinion refers to Garrick as the coiner of the Las Vegas name he has always sold them under the name las Vegas. I appriciate the replys, and am glad to know I'm not out of touch, I was just ripped that someone would have the gaul to tell me I didn't know my stock, especially after the many years of working with them and the fact that it has never been an issue. As long as the breeders I look up to and other people know that they are the same albino line and decide to use the name Las Vegas or Rain water, I'll stick with what I like and has worked for me. Thanks fellow herpers I feel a lot better.

a while back tim rainwater was accused of taking some peoples monies. it left a bad taste in some peoples mouths and they started calling them las vegas albinos ( it caught on) instead of rainwaters. but if it makes for anything sometimes trempers are refered to as texas strain and bells as florida strain. personally i use the term rainwater, bell and tremper, but that is my choice just because you use las vegas instead of rainwater docent make you not know your stock

p.s. i think some of the wiki info isnt quite accurate just my opinion. do not quote it as fact, or the law or bible or final word.

 

[M_surinamensis]

"Rainwater or Las Vegas Albinos were founded by Tim Rainwater in 1998.

Which is just one of the many reasons people are angry at Tim Rainwater. He didn't discover them. He didn't establish them. He didn't found the line. He bought the project off a Las Vegas local, named it after himself, marketed it in his typical fashion and usurped the credit.

The original male by the way... died of dehydration in a tank in Tim Rainwater's (now defunct) retail store. Neglected to death.

Hardly his only sin, he has a laundry list of lies, thefts, misrepresentations and shady practices, which leads to...

I think Rainwater is as you mentioned the new term but both are applicable.

Rainwater is the older term, the one the line was marketed under when Tim began selling to the public. Since he didn't develop the line and since his crimes are pretty extensive, some people feel that he should not be acknowledged and have taken away his stolen credit by calling the line "Las Vegas."

 

[Brewboy74]

Rainwater is the older term, the one the line was marketed under when Tim began selling to the public. "

Good to know. As I said before still new to all of this but learning.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Good to know. As I said before still new to all of this but learning.

Don't stress it.

The reptile industry is smaller than a lot of other types of animals but there are still hundred of names and accomplishments and past deeds, good and bad, that have happened over the last fifty-sixty years. You can't be expected to miraculously know them all overnight, especially because there are some incidents that aren't cut and dry right and wrong. Rivalries, gossip, friendships, advertising techniques, differences of opinion and all sorts of other things come into play much of the time.

Tim Rainwater is one of the pretty easily judged cases though. I don't think listing all the specifics is really appropriate to this board, it is not that type of forum, but I am positive that a search in a more appropriate place (fauna for instance), will get you all the evidence and all the information you could possibly want. Probably more than you want. Set aside a few hours if you're going to go researching the man's various misdeeds.

Rainwater has ended up responsible for a couple instances of naming confusion though. The albino leopard gecko line has caused some confusion for some people, since two names are being used. He's also responsible for marketing a deadly but slow acting fungal infection as a "calico" morph in corn snakes.

 

[Brewboy74]

Cool now I have a project. You have peeked my curiosity.

Robin, I figured I would get it for using the Wiki as fact......lol.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Sounds to me like I'd rather stick with the Las Vegas title and give credit where credit is due. Personally if the laundry list of faux pas against rainwater is that bad I wouldn't want to be associated with it esp. if all he did was jack some one elses developed line and stick his name on it. Like in the rabbit world, that would be the equivelant of changing the original breeding rabbitry 's name offa the pedigree to reflect your name on a rabbit you bought from someone else. A def. NO NO.

 

[xanderville]

Adam,

Thats really crazy that someone would accuse you of not knowing your stock. I have seen your stock in person and it is simply amazing. Especially your Las Vegas (or rainwater) line of geckos. The projects you have going in that albino strain have high potential.

Sometimes public forums bring out the pseudo-know-it-alls when in reality they are just new to industry. And like what was said before, there is no possible way to learn the history of any species in a matter of months or even years. Unfortunately in this vast world there will be some who believe owning a reptile makes them an expert overnight. Fortunately this forum has a lot of knoweldgeable people on it with decades of experience.

Hey man, you taught me a lot and you know your stuff. And remember the reptiile expo is this weekend

 

[Jordan]

Yeh from hearing all this i want to use 'las vegas' but im just so used to rainwater...
bit annoying.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Personally if the laundry list of faux pas against rainwater is that bad I wouldn't want to be associated with it esp. if all he did was jack some one elses developed line and stick his name on it.

He bought the project pretty much with the second generation produced by the initial male, once some of the offspring had been bred back to him and to one another, demonstrating it was a simple recessive. I do not know the exact number, but it was a very small group of stock animals, that had been used to just barely establish it as a genetic trait.

Tim Rainwater is, or was, very very good at two things. Marketing the living crap out of himself and lying through his teeth. Three I suppose if you count road collecting animals in Arizona and then selling them as captive bred.

He was the golden boy of the herpetocultural world for a little while though, with his shiny new less brown albino leopard geckos and his financial investors putting up a pet shop for him and his interviews in Reptiles Magazine and his banner ads on the (then budding) internet forums. Lasted for a couple years actually- right up until he got caught. He lost what credibility he had with the other people in the industry and even the more dedicated hobbyists, but it took a lot longer for any of that to filter down to the one leopard gecko that they bought because little Timmy had a good report card kind of crowd.

By the time Rainwater's name became worse than nothing, most of the world was calling them Rainwater albinos.

Yeh from hearing all this i want to use 'las vegas' but im just so used to rainwater...
bit annoying.

Which is pretty much the problem. If everyone calls them Rainwaters, that is what customers and other dealers and breeders recognize. Calling them something else requires a lot of exposition and explaining every time someone asks what a "Las Vegas Albino" is.

Worth it though, because Rainwater's name should never be associated with anything people can be proud of. Every time I see one of those "Look at these rainwaters I just hatched!" threads, I am reminded that people really don't name their kids Judas or Pol Pot these days. Rainwater's heading in the same well deserved direction.

Out of order response-

Like in the rabbit world, that would be the equivelant of changing the original breeding rabbitry 's name offa the pedigree to reflect your name on a rabbit you bought from someone else. A def. NO NO.

It's not well received in the reptile world either. Although the ones who think they can get away with it are generally big enough and into enough self promotion that they can muddy the waters and dodge the hit. "Lemon Pastel" ball pythons for example... were known as "Pastel Blondes" by the guy who proved out the morph, for generations before he sold them to the people that relabeled them and claimed to be the originators.

 

[robin]

i call them rainwaters because all this stuff happened after and it is embeded into my brain, rainwater

but since we are on the topic of calling which strain what didnt everyone buy their original projects off of someone? or something like that?

 

[Jordan]

i call them rainwaters because all this stuff happened after and it is embeded into my brain, rainwater

but since we are on the topic of calling which strain what didnt everyone buy their original projects off of someone? or something like that?

I suppose thats a good point, unless a new genetic trait was from a wild caught you personally caught, then there was always an owner before you who had it (just didnt know about it).
But still surely there is some credit for discovering and bringing a genetic trait to life and proving it out and doing all the testing.

Another thing is, as much as the man himself doesnt sound nice, i do like the name 'Rainwater' as a morph name. Its given birth to cool names like Raining Red stripe and Typhoon from it, all associated with water lol.

 

[M_surinamensis]

i call them rainwaters because all this stuff happened after and it is embeded into my brain, rainwater

Exactly. Just... with fewer words. You know me and long posts.

but since we are on the topic of calling which strain what didnt everyone buy their original projects off of someone? or something like that?

Someone somewhere collected it or found it randomly in their stock when they didn't realize the trait existed... but the credit generally goes to whoever noticed it and proved it out and determined the method of inheritance through breeding. That person is the one with the widely accepted privilege of naming it and being known as the originator.

Although credit thieving and project usurping does happen. Probably more frequently than most people realize, the big guys who have originated dozens of morphs (rather than combinations of morphs) got there partially by having first crack at the stuff being exported and partially by throwing money at anything they think might be something when its owned by someone else.

The more honest of them will happily say "We bought this project of three animals from _______, then fully mapped the genetics and went into high production." The Barkers, for example, have a ton of projects that they bought off someone in its very early stages for a good price and then proved out. And a ton more they genuinely started themselves from a single imported animal. When asked, (and generally when presenting a project in any kind of formal way) they always make the distinction.

The least honest of them expect the world to believe that they randomly lucked into two dozen ball python :cough cough: morphs and did all the work and assumed all the risk of proving out the genetics. And because they have full double page ads in Reptiles Magazine and a KS forum sponsorship, they get away with it for the most part. There are a couple of them that operate like a low key Joe Capone when it comes to credit where credit is due, honest representation of stock and selective breeding strategies.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Why don't reptiles go the way of mammals with pedigrees. Wouldn't that alleviate a lot of the "MINE" bickering? You mentioned mapping the morph why not formalize it and end all this idea theft before it starts? Would seem the logical thought right 'cause there's certainly never going to be an end to the not so honest people any time soon.

 

[Brewboy74]

The problem is who gets to decide who created what for or the morphs that exist now. It should work for future morphs though.