Bold Stripe recessive?

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK, I wanted to start a separate thread for this since the discussion on stripes being recessive or not has popped up in a couple of non-related threads.

How would you describe a bold stripe x bold stripe producing a 'normal' patterned baby? If both parents were recessive, wouldn't 100% of the offspring be Bold Stripe? Or what about Bold Stripe x Bold Stripe producing bold aberrant jungles?

I am not saying the claim that the stripe gene is recessive is correct or incorrect, but I have had 'normal' and 'aberrant' offspring come from stripe x stripe pairings, and I just can't bring myself to label them "het for stripe".

 

[Grinning Geckos]

If both parents are striped, and the gene is a simple recessive, then yes you should hatch out all stripes. At the very least I would expect all jungles and stripes...not normal.

 

[Jeanne]

Isn't it possible that there are Recessive and Line Bred Stripes?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Isn't it possible that there are Recessive and Line Bred Stripes?

I honestly think their are two lines of stripes going on.

 

[Jeanne]

I honestly think their are two lines of stripes going on.

Me too. Thats why in the other thread I only mentioned Kelli's and Robin's Stripes being Recessive

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I HAVE Robin's bold stripe breeders. The produced a normal and an aberrant patterned offspring.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I just wanted to applaud Marcia for bringing this topic up and being open about producing non-Stripe offspring from Stripe x Stripe. It makes it very obvious that it is NOT recessive.

It is possible that Stripes in some lines have been so selectively bred that it may LOOK as if it's recessive, though in fact it's not. I think if it was recessive, you'll see a lot more Stripes on the market then you do.

I would suggest, Marcia to label the offspring as "from Stripe lines," because it's possible that Stripe might pop back up again in future generations.

I still think Jungle/Aberrant/Stripe is some how linked. Hopefully within this next year I'll be able to pin point it & post my findings (along with detailed records & pics).

 

[Franks_Geckos]

Hmmmm....... So perhaps my belief (and others) that the Stripes (at least not all of them) are not a simple-recessive genetic trait is not totally debunked yet. I would like to hear more on the matter, but I have had similar experience with my jungles. I also do prefer labelling "from jungle lines" as opposed to "het for jungle" unless it is a known recessive when I sell a hatchling that is not outwardly jungle. Time will tell on this, but I also believe that a bunch of line breeding can make a non-recessive trait appear to act like one. As I said in the other thread, I would love to have recessive stripes, but, alas, the debate continues.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

Well, I'm planning on doing stripe x stripe and stripe x normal breedings next year. I'll keep track of what pops out! The only way we'll get to the bottom of this is if several people do the same.

 

[marula]

...i think the recessive gene in stripe is not common but probably some bloodline have this prerogative..
like hine hypo....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

My question about this does NOT include the albino stripe lines. I have separate data for my Tremper stripes and reverse stripes.

 

[nwheat]

I think the genetics behind patterns in geckos is one of the most intriguing questions out there. Like I mentioned before, I had assumed they were polygenic because of cases like Marcia's where nonstripes come from two stripes. But then some lines do clearly act recessive.

It is possible there are different lines - one recessive, the other not. I think it is more likely there is something a little different about it though. I don't know what it is but here are some of the unusual possibilities I can think of.

First, it may be polygenic but with only two genes it would still act recessive much of the time.

Next, stripe may be recessive, but there may be some kind of modifier gene that effects it. - In labs, black and chocolate have a simple dom/rec relationship, but a second gene can turn off the black brown resulting in yellow when two alleles are present. In calico & tortoiseshell cats I believe black & orange are codominant, but then there is another gene that controls white splotches.

So it is possible that there is some kind of modifier gene messing with the straightforwardness of the recessive stripe gene. If it is on the same chromosome as stripe, this would explain why most of the time we see stripes from striped parents - but not all the time - crossing over could separate those genes occasionally.

As I mentioned before, this is my first season with stripes, so this is pretty much theoretical based on other peoples findings.

All I really know is hatching stripes is really FUN!!!!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Great theories, Nancy! Sometimes I would LOVE to do the 'Vulcan Mind Probe' on your brain and transfer your phlethora of knowledge into my pea-brain.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

First, it may be polygenic but with only two genes it would still act recessive much of the time.

I'm pretty sure it can't be polygenic unless their are MULTIPLE unidentified genes involved. It is very possible for a selectively bred trait to pop up in later generations. It all would depend on the luck of the draw.

So it is possible that there is some kind of modifier gene messing with the straightforwardness of the recessive stripe gene. If it is on the same chromosome as stripe, this would explain why most of the time we see stripes from striped parents - but not all the time - crossing over could separate those genes occasionally.

An odd example of pattern is the relationship between Motley & Stripe in cornsnakes. Motley is dominant to Stripe, and recessive to wildtype, but Stripe affects the Motley pattern in it's het form. So you'll have Stripes, Motleys & Motley het Stripes (sometimes called Motley-Stripes, Stripe-Motleys & Ribbon Motleys). I would be nice if that was the relationship between Jungle/Stripe/Aberrant, but I think I'm asking a lot.

 

[nwheat]

LOL, Marcia - I'm the one learning from you every day!:main_yes:

Stephanie, I had hoped that it would work like motley/stripe in cornsnakes as well. Is there much variation in the way the motley/stripes look?

Maybe there are multiple alleles like motley/stripe and amelanism in cornsnakes: The regular stripe allele recessive to the normal allele, then a jungle allele that could produce aberrancy on just the back when you have one normal & one jungle, a really jungly jungle with two jungle alleles, and various amounts of stripiness depending on whether you have one stripe allele and a normal or a jungle or two stripe alleles.

Here's a guess about how multiple alleles (no aberrant allele could work:

SS = stripe SJ = stripe/jungle SN = normal het stripe
JJ = Jungle JN = aberrant back, banded tail NN = normal

Maybe there are four alleles with a separate one for aberrancy (I always get aberrant offspring from my aberrant tangs but never jungles)?

Here's a guess about how multiple alleles (including an aberrant allele) could work:

SS = stripe SJ = stripe/jungle SA = ? SN = normal het stripe
JJ = jungle JA = slightly jungle JN = normal het jungle
AA = aberrant back, banded tail AN = normal het aberrant
NN = normal

Marcia, did you say you produced totally banded offspring from two stripes? Because that still makes problems for my idea. There must still be some kind of epistatic gene that could turn off pattern.....

Notice that in a breeding group where other alleles were rare/absent stripe would act like a regular recessive....

Those of you that have worked with stripes & jungles - does that make any sense? What kinds of unusual combinations have you guys found? I have such limited breeding experience I can't tell if this idea really makes sense or not. My head hurts now, so I'll stop....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, did you say you produced totally banded offspring from two stripes? Because that still makes problems for my idea. There must still be some kind of epistatic gene that could turn off pattern.....

Yes. The only aberrancy was at the last bands at end of the tail where connected in one spot. I'll try to get a photo posted.

 

[KelliH]

Great thread. I personally have only produced stripes when breeding stripe X stripe. Although some of these stripes may not be "textbook" stripes, as they look more "jungley" (as Robin and I have always called them). I think they are all stripes, just that some are nicer than others.

When breeding Stripe X Stripe I have always produced offspring like this, like I said , I think all are the same thing (Stripe), just some are better examples than others. Pictured last is the pair that produced this years Bold Stripes-

 

[KelliH]

And here are some examples of Striped Bells I have produced this year when breeding normal looking (non striped/non jungle) Het Stripe parents to each other.

You see how some do not have fully striped tails etc. Still Stripes IMO.

 

[eyelids]

I can defintely understand why you consider your Stripes to recessive, but why did you have torture us with the pics! Stunning, every last one of them!

Makes me really miss the Stripe het Bell I got from you that died...

 

[marula]

:stop: ...i agree with michael... :stop: no more pics of your stripes kelli!
PLEASE :bigcry: :bigcry: ..i whant bell stripes too :wall: i don't be able to wait arlington!!!!