Bubblegum x High yellow, Bell Albino, or SHTCTB outcomes?

[discoverlight]

I recently got a bubblegum and I have 3 possible female breeders for him. I don't know which female would get me the most interesting babies?

I would appreciate any guesses, as I know none of the possible hets either, just general genetics would be fine.

 

[Neon Aurora]

Bubblegum? The only bubblegum leopard gecko I have ever heard of is the "bubblegum albino", which is a mixture of two different albinos (bad, should not be bred). Do you have something other than that?

 

[acpart]

I have done a bit of research into the "bubblegum" morph and don't find it very clear. As far as I can tell, "bubblegum" may be:
--albino geckos of more than one albino strain
--albino geckos that look much brighter than other albinos at least as hatchlings
--both of the above

Do you know the genetics of your bubblegum?
Are you willing to breed a gecko with unknown and possibly multiple albino strains? This is frowned upon by many people (because you end up with leopard geckos whose genetics are not only unknown, but ultimately unknowable), which is not to say it's sinful or wrong necessarily, but may significantly limit the people who would be willing to buy a gecko from you.

If it turns out that the albino strain is only one, is known, and that the breeder who calls them "bubblegum" is just referring to the color, then you have to ask yourself whether this gecko will look as dramatic when it matures. I've produced a number of geckos who are simply amazing after 2-3 sheds, whose color fades significantly as they mature and by adulthood they are very nice, but no longer amazing. Some people do make a point of selling hatchlings at that stage since they look so great. This also isn't necessarily bad, though I do think a breeder should let the customer know what changes in looks to anticipate.

That said, since I do believe that people should get answers to their questions, even if the responder has problems with the premise of the question, I think you could get some nice colors by breeding it to the SHTCTB. I would really caution against breeding him to the Bell if you don't know what albino strain her is, since you will further muddy the waters of albino genetics.
I hope this is helpful. If I've presumed too much about your knowledge of genetics, feel free to ask (and if you feel you have very little knowledge of genetics, please learn more before breeding).

Aliza

 

[discoverlight]

Yeah he is a Albino Bubblegum, that's all I got from the breeder. I'm not looking to produce some authentic gene or anything, I just want a few babies and I want to know which pairing would make the most appealing to the eye.

I also have a really big (possibly giant, over 100 grams, or a huge male) wild type with jungle het, and a tang tail that I can breed to one of the females above, a high yellow with green tinge, she's banded.

 

[acpart]

I think any of your choices could yield interesting hatchlings, but I'd avoid the Bell albino (unless the breeder can tell you for sure that your bubblegum is Bell and only Bell) just to keep from making the genetic situation more complicated.

Aliza

 

[discoverlight]

That's fine, she's like one of my babies so I was only planning on breeding her if it would make something really cool. I'm interested to see how the high yellow would breed with the albino bubblegum? If that'll get me any cool babies. Definitely breeding him to my SHTCTB though

 

[discoverlight]

I can take a picture of him if it'll help

 

[Neon Aurora]

Have you read through this thread? http://geckoforums.net/f125-morphs-genetics/49197.htm

There is some very good information in there on why breeding multiple strains of albino is generally frowned upon.

A high yellow (normal) with any kind of albino will just make normals unless the high yellow is het for the correct strain of albino. I also recommend you educate yourself in basic genetics before getting involved in breeding. It's very important to understand the genes you are working with and how they are passed from gecko to gecko.

Be careful producing babies like these. A lot of people are not going to want to buy them. Make sure that if you do breed them, that you are prepared to keep the babies if you have to.

 

[discoverlight]

I know basic genetics, I wanted some other opinions on the different types of morphs. Since I didn't know what bubblegum was I was wondering if it was a recessive gene or a dominant or something like that. If i knew I could probably go through the genes and see what outcomes I could get but I know barely anything about the genes of my geckos so it's a guessing game for both you and me right now

 

[discoverlight]

So the problem is knowing if it's Bell or Tremper albino babies as the outcomes? With unknown hets, possible het tremper or bell albino. If I sell them telling people theyre possibly either or and it's a 50/50 chance getting a tremper or bell then wouldnt it be ok to sell them? ( If i breed him to a SHTCTB or my high yellow?)

 

[stager]

The problem with the offspring of any pairing to a bubble gum is you never know which albino strain it will be het for which just makes a mess of things. It's not your fault when you don't know genetics that we'll but the irresponsible breeder who created these things

 

[Neon Aurora]

The problem is this - A bubblegum is usually a gecko that carries the genes for two types of albino. It could be a tremper het bell, or a RW tremper, or any combination, homozygous or heterozygous.

Now, I'm a little confused. Do you know what they meant by bubblegum? Did they say it was two albino strains, or give you any information?

You would not be selling them as either or. You would be selling them as a double albino, or most likely saying you straight up just don't know what it is. No reputable breeder would buy one. In my opinion, it would be irresponsible to breed and sell these. There are many different opinions on the matter, but I genuinely think there are getting to be far too many leopard geckos. It's kind of like dogs. People generally say it's bad to breed mutts. Responsible dog breeding is between dogs that are healthy and that serve a purpose (IMO, this doesn't always mean pedigreed purebred dogs. More just dogs that are, most importantly, healthy and secondly being bred for a purpose). I shouldn't just take my poodle mix and breed to a rottweiler because it will make cool babies. There are already plenty of pets out there, too many actually. I don't see why it should be different with leopard geckos. So many of them already suffer (like in certain chain petstores, or when people get them and have no idea what they're doing).

I really apologize if any of this seems rude, it genuinely is not meant to be. I just don't understand why everyone wants to breed them for no reason. If you want to breed them, then what's wrong with getting a pair of animals with known genetics who are healthy? I mean, I always think about how many are being produced every year. It's exponential. More and more people start breeding them and eventually you just have too many. I mean, they live for like 20 years and are really quite prolific.

I just think it's really important that people keep the big picture in mind. Not every gecko needs to be bred. Only the ones with the best genetics for it. That is the whole reason we sterilize dogs and cats. They don't all need to breed.

I'm sorry. This is sort of a tangent. I hope I did not offend. Not everyone shares my opinion, which is fine, but this is my two cents.

 

[discoverlight]

No no it's not offensive in any way, I might just keep the geckos for a personal collection. He's gorgeous and will make a good pet for someone if theyre interested as well.
If anything, I'll just breed my wild type, het jungle to my SHTCTB and see what comes up, that should produce pretty cool babies.

How far can you inbreed before it becomes problematic? I know I might need to inbreed one of the babies back to the mother or the father, if I can buy a separate gecko I will but money is tight for me and If it's safe to inbreed once then I'll consider it. I'll only proceed with it if it's safe, any info regarding inbreeding for morphs would be highly appreciated!

 

[Neon Aurora]

I'm glad I did not offend. =)

Just an off note, a gecko can't be het for jungle. Jungle is a polygenic trait (controlled by many genes), so typically occurs through line breeding.

People will tell you various things regarding inbreeding. I personally want to avoid inbreeding for more than one generation. I do plan to cross a hatchling I produced this season back to her father, but after that I am outcrossing. Many people will tell you 3-4 generations is fine, so there is no clear answer. I have noticed things like underbites and kinked tails in some stock, and there is some debate whether or not it's caused by inbreeding or not. My main priority is producing healthy animals, and my secondary is pretty animals. I just choose to take the cautious route.

Keep in mind - it may still be hard to sell the hatchlings of your pairing because they have unknown hets. You can't say for certainty what exactly they are. Most likely, you will get normals with varying amounts of spotting and orange. They may have hets, I bet het tremper is real common. This is another effect of having so many leopard geckos being produced each year. It becomes hard to sell them unless your stock is very good.

These are all things to consider before breeding.
Why do I want to breed?
Am I prepared to provide for all of the babies financially and space-wise in the event that I can't sell them?
Do I have a market for the babies?

Don't forget, leopard geckos can live for 20 years and each female can produce up to 20 eggs each season. That's a lot of babies!

 

[discoverlight]

I'm aware of the space, time, and price of the babies. That's why I've decided to breed. I'm curious to see if any surprises hatch out of this clutch.
I am going to advertise the babies in any way possible so that they sell, if not then I can keep them with no issues.

 

[Neon Aurora]

Just make sure to be ethical about it. Make sure to list that you do not know the genetic background of the hatchlings and that you recommend the hatchlings be purchased as pets. You should also sell them at the price of a pet rather than a breeder.

 

[discoverlight]

Definitely, not going to sell them for more than theyre worth. Most definitely being sold as pets unless someone wants to use the baby in something theyre doing, I'm thinking 10-15$ a baby.

 

[ehebert]

Bubblegum is a term used for a gecko showing the albino phenotype but coming from a test breeding that involves 2 different albino strains. These animals should never be used in a breeding program since they are pet only animals.
Also, Neon Aurora is right. Jungle is not a recessive gene, therefore it can't be a het. It's poly genetic.

 

[indyana]

Okay, not sure at this point whether I can say anything to discourage you from breeding geckos with unknown genetics, but I'm going to try anyway.

A gecko pairing can produce a very large number of babies. Six to ten is normal; up into the range of twenty is possible. Each of those animals has a lifespan of decades. That's a huge commitment, to take care of a large collection of geckos for twenty years. Consider honestly whether you can make that promise at this point in your life.

So then, assuming you can't do that, there is selling the babies. If you want to know what happens to the majority of geckos that aren't taken into high-end breeding collections (or even some that are...), take a look at all the unhealthy, maltreated geckos being sold, traded, and given away online. Look at what happens to the mass-produced geckos sold to chain pet stores. Think about all the ones who don't make it at all because people don't care for them properly and let them die. Despite the fact that these are amazing animals that can live a very long time with proper care, a lot of the population views them as throwaway pets.

I know this sounds very negative... There are so, so many leopard geckos out there already, and a lot of them are in trouble. It's worse for geckos that aren't valuable as a part of the breeding market.

To be honest, I feel that even among people breeding geckos with known genetics, a lot of breeders are overproducing. There are a ton of geckos on the market because they're so easy to breed and fun to collect. I think people forget sometimes that there isn't endless demand out there for morphs. :\

 

[Neon Aurora]

I have to agree with Rachel. The overpopulation problem is the same for geckos and dogs. The main difference is this - Dogs are in shelters being euthanized and having humane deaths because of their numbers, but geckos are simply suffering and dying of crypto, lack of proper care, and having long, slow deaths. Everyone thinks it's great fun to breed them but not everyone acknowledges the consequences to doing so. These guys live longer than dogs, too. People who buy them are usually not prepared for the commitment. My two normals (pets, due to unknown genetics) were both given to me by people who no longer wanted to care for them. They knew I had leopard geckos, so asked if I would take them on. This is part of the reason I think it's important to use geckos with tracked genetics. Geckos with proper genetic information will most likely be bought by other breeders, meaning they have less of a chance of ending up as throw-away pets like my two girls and many, many other geckos.

I'm not going to ridicule you because I hate when people on forums do that, but I am going to say I disagree with your opinion. I've given you the advice that I can, and my two cents on the issue.