Muddy Waters......

BalloonzForU · Sep 21, 2009

I've seen a lot of beautiful animals out there with all the new combos morphs that are popping up, but there are lot that look the same, however they are not genetically.

Some topics I'd like to see in this thread are:

Crossing different albinos together and the cons of doing so, so that some of the new comers know why it's frowned upon.

Getting back to the basic morphs, cleaning up the genetic mutts, and where to start.

I can see this becoming a heated subject so please note I will not allow any bashing of anyone's opinion. Please keep your replies respectfull of others and stick to the subjects at hand.

I'm going to make this a sticky for the time being so that everyone has a chance to get in on the discusion.

robin · Sep 21, 2009

no crossing albino strains thats a big nono in my eyes!

i think we should try to outcross and get back to basics but as you know everyone wants the brand new thing eye popping new morph and who cares about the basics, the plain old geckos. i have purchased some bling geckos because thats what people want but what i want to do is clean up some things and improve on some others

i also think we as a community need to try and keep a good portion of our SSP pure. i know some are going to be needed to clean some things up and outcross some other things. we must thought try and keep a good diverse ssp population. you never know when we may not be able to get anymore. like before. ya know?

BioWorkZ · Sep 21, 2009

Why is it a bad idea to cross different albino strains? Sorry, but I'm a newb to genetics.

BalloonzForU · Sep 21, 2009

BioWorkZ said:
Why is it a bad idea to cross different albino strains? Sorry, but I'm a newb to genetics.

All three different albino strains are not compatible with each other. So if you breed a Bell male to a Tremper female you will get a bunch of normals that carry the gene for both Bell and Tremper albinos. Now take those babies and breed them to others like themselves, if you get albinos you would never know if they are Tremper or Bell albinos by just looking at them, plus they will be poss het bell & trempers. Who wants to buy something like that where it can take years to proove out what they are and what they are not?

This is just another example of muddy waters....

jandsfannon · Sep 21, 2009

BalloonzForU said:
Now take those babies and breed them to others like themselves, if you get albinos you would never know if they are Tremper or Bell albinos by just looking at them, plus they will be poss het bell & trempers. Who wants to buy something like that where it can take years to proove out what they are and what they are not?

This is just another example of muddy waters....

There is someone here in Canada doing just that, he took a Tremper and a Rainwater and crossed them and bred them back. Hes calling them "New Blood Albinos." When I approached him to ask him what they are, he told me what he crossed. So I asked what are they Trempers or Rainwaters and after much prodding he finally said that he did not know I would have to test breed to tell him! I just walked away!
If they could combine I think it would be awesome but since they do not I stay away from crossing any strains of albinos.

Halley · Sep 21, 2009

jandsfannon said:
There is someone here in Canada doing just that, he took a Tremper and a Rainwater and crossed them and bred them back. Hes calling them "New Blood Albinos." When I approached him to ask him what they are, he told me what he crossed. So I asked what are they Trempers or Rainwaters and after much prodding he finally said that he did not know I would have to test breed to tell him! I just walked away!
If they could combine I think it would be awesome but since they do not I stay away from crossing any strains of albinos.

Well the albino strains can combine just not in the first generation. Just like any other double recessive combo.

OneFootedAce · Sep 21, 2009

jandsfannon said:
There is someone here in Canada doing just that, he took a Tremper and a Rainwater and crossed them and bred them back. Hes calling them "New Blood Albinos." When I approached him to ask him what they are, he told me what he crossed. So I asked what are they Trempers or Rainwaters and after much prodding he finally said that he did not know I would have to test breed to tell him! I just walked away!
If they could combine I think it would be awesome but since they do not I stay away from crossing any strains of albinos.

Is that what that one was? Ive seen it at the past few expo including the CRBE, and was wondering what it was from and how he knew it was a new strain, he has a hige group of hatchlings of these "new bloods" too. Good to know what they actually are

I dont think he should be labelling them as new blood though, honestly i dont think it should even be for sale.

ILoveGeckos14 · Sep 21, 2009

Are all the albinos today descendant from one individual? As in one founding tremper albino, one founding bell albino and one founding rainwater? Or have others with captive bred collections produced their own tremper, bell or rainwaters around the same time or since their discovery?

BalloonzForU · Sep 21, 2009

ILoveGeckos14 said:
Are all the albinos today descendant from one individual? As in one founding tremper albino, one founding bell albino and one founding rainwater? Or have others with captive bred collections produced their own tremper, bell or rainwaters around the same time or since their discovery?

My personal belief is they are only from one founding animal or hets to their own strain. There had been talk over the years to say there were a 4th albino, always proving to either be a hoax or a strain that already existed. There is currently another one in question as we speak.

Wandering Paddle · Sep 21, 2009

Im very happy to see this thread.

If someone tried to market "new blood albinos" at an expo i was at, i would have to be escorted out after throwing a fit. Can you imagine all the new people asking "new blood X bell enigma????" here in the genetics section...

all albinos are descended from one individual gecko that produced an inheritable random mutation...

THE WHISPERER · Sep 21, 2009

O.K. i am a firm believer in not mixing the albino strains and i have preached it myself many of times, but lately i've noticed a few big name breeders (whom i won't mention) that have been selling morphs that are mixed with one albino and het for another. I just don't get it. I mean these breeders know a lot more about gecko genetics than i probably ever will and they are doing it. Why? Is there something they know that we don't? just looking for some other thoughts, because i don't always see both sides of things.

BalloonzForU · Sep 22, 2009

THE WHISPERER said:
O.K. i am a firm believer in not mixing the albino strains and i have preached it myself many of times, but lately i've noticed a few big name breeders (whom i won't mention) that have been selling morphs that are mixed with one albino and het for another. I just don't get it. I mean these breeders know a lot more about gecko genetics than i probably ever will and they are doing it. Why? Is there something they know that we don't? just looking for some other thoughts, because i don't always see both sides of things.

Unfortunately in the case of RESPECTED breeders doing this is because of trying to un-muddy the waters.

Because many people have been trying to produce certain morphs we've lost some of the original base morphs. Example Patternless stripes het nothing are hard to come by. In order to isolate them and get a jump start on a newer morphs some may have inadvertedly created some albino crosses. These "mutts" as I call them can't just sit there in a tub doing nothing when someone may want them.

This is something "We" as a community should have thought of a few years ago. I think most of us should have at least one project each working on, to clean up the mess some have left behind, and start producing pure base morphs again. I know I have a few that I will be working on in the near future and hope to do for many years to come.

The potential from cleaning up these morphs is limitless.

THE WHISPERER · Sep 22, 2009

Thanks FE

ILoveGeckos14 · Sep 22, 2009

I also get confused when I see someone say they are out-crossing when breeding to a normal wild-type gecko. I would say breeding an enigma to a normal would have to "outcross" the lines more than say an enigma to an enigma but the normal is still from the original gene pool. Is this practice considered out crossing?

The best way to clean up the gene pool and rediscover the classic morphs would be for someone to take on a captive bred line of wild leopard geckos and hope for a murphy patternless or albino strain to pop out. Has anyone tried or in the process of trying to do that?
The next best thing would be to take wild caught bloodlines X the desired classic morphs to halfway clean up the genetics. Right?

I love wild bloodline geckos, because I see the opportunity to pick what I like about the babies and breed for that. I entered the hobby feeling as if everyone had already made up my mind for me about what was cool or desirable through their own selective breeding. I feel like the wild types give me an opportunity to see my choices come to fruition even if the best it produces is some high yellows lol

I like this thread, and I think it is needed. I'm surprised people aren't approaching the enigma with more caution because as a dominant mutation it has the ability to push all the clean morphs out fairly quickly. "But that's a different story altogether"....(wayne's world anyone? :main_laugh

BalloonzForU · Sep 22, 2009

Any time you cross any gecko with a non "directly or closely" related one you are outcrossing to a degree. Normals het nothing really play well into something like this and I would say are still outcrossing as long as they are not directly related or even closely related.

Many of us that you see trying to collect some of the sub-species are one step ahead of you on that.

We need a large gene pool to work with to clean up this mess. I'm very thankful for those that are working with pure sub-species and those that brought them into the country. Now to try to keep track of who's lines are related to who? I was offered to purchase a male afghan, come to find out it was a sibbling to the female I already had, we need to keep an eye on these things while we can.

ILoveGeckos14 · Sep 22, 2009

BalloonzForU said:
Many of us that you see trying to collect some of the sub-species are one step ahead of you on that.

We need a large gene pool to work with to clean up this mess. I'm very thankful for those that are working with pure sub-species and those that brought them into the country. Now to try to keep track of who's lines are related to who? I was offered to purchase a male afghan, come to find out it was a sibbling to the female I already had, we need to keep an eye on these things while we can.

That's good news, I knew there had to be some secret sub species hoarders out there!! :main_laugh: I have a 1.2 group E.m.m and im interested in non-related macularius, afghanicus and montanus as well. HINT HINT!:main_laugh: But that is why I wanted to get these geckos so that I could contribute to the community in a productive manner that and I like "normals"! Are there any F1/F2's that are currently being brought in or does that not happen very often, if at all?

Ehatcher · Sep 22, 2009

I would love to have a 4.16 breeding pair of HEALTHY Wild Caught E. Macularius, non sub species. Couldnt get anymore base than that.

I would never buy an animal that was het for two different albino strains, or displayed one and was het for the other. I would also NEVER breed two strains together. Another thing that bothers me is that it is becoming increasingly hard to find ANY leopard geckos that are HET for NOTHING.

BalloonzForU · Sep 22, 2009

Ehatcher said:
I would love to have a 4.16 breeding pair of HEALTHY Wild Caught E. Macularius, non sub species. Couldnt get anymore base than that.

I would never buy an animal that was het for two different albino strains, or displayed one and was het for the other. I would also NEVER breed two strains together. Another thing that bothers me is that it is becoming increasingly hard to find ANY leopard geckos that are HET for NOTHING.

The "het for nothing" leos are out there, you just have to look for them. I have a feeling in the next couple of years you'll be able to find more of the single morph geckos het for nothing. :main_thumbsup:

Chewbecca · Sep 22, 2009

BalloonzForU said:
The "het for nothing" leos are out there, you just have to look for them. I have a feeling in the next couple of years you'll be able to find more of the single morph geckos het for nothing. :main_thumbsup:

*cough me cough*
Ahem.

I'll be breeding my normals het for nothing to keep this going for you guys.

BalloonzForU · Sep 22, 2009

Chewbecca said:
*cough me cough*
Ahem.

I'll be breeding my normals het for nothing to keep this going for you guys.

:main_thumbsup:

Muddy Waters......

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