Care Sheet Review :)

[aburningflame]

Hey guys,
Trying to start up with leopard gecko breeding so Ive been working on a website.

Part of the site is a care sheet, and I would appreciate any reviews of the care sheet (anything inaccurate? anything you feel I should add?) before I actually make the site live (probably in a month or so)

Thanks!

http://torontoleopardgeckos.com/leopard-gecko-care-sheet.php

 

[acpart]

I started reading it, though I don't have time to take a good look right now. So far I see a few typos. If you email me the text ([email protected]) I will correct the typos and any wording or grammar errors and also include some comments.

Aliza (Gecko Time editor)

 

[aburningflame]

Hey Aliza,
I was more concerned about content than typos/grammar.

The site isnt live yet: www.torontoleopardgeckos.com - youll see the coming soon text.

I will look over typos and grammars after - just wanted some input on the actual content - it was done to the best of my knowledge/experience.
Just wanted some others to pitch in thanks!

 

[acpart]

I'll look at content if I have time tomorrow and PM some comments.

Aliza

 

[aburningflame]

thanks really appreciate your time.

ive read a lot on leos for the past 6mths + and just want to make sure my information is accurate and consistent with best practices there seem to be a lot of conflicting info on leos.

 

[JordanAng420]

Excellent care sheet! I would recommend leaving the bowl of mealworms in the cage for the gecko to free feed on, 24-7, and then feeding the crickets three times weekly. I have a lot of geckos that like to get up in the middle of the night when i'm sleeping to feed themselves, and it's the only time that they'll eat.

 

[aburningflame]

very good point - i do that with my geckos. I will definitely mention it because mine do that as well.
although - sometimes i dont leave the bowl in.

for my adult geckos i leave the bowl of mealies in there and feed with crickets bi to tri-weekly

for the 2 baby geckos i have - i feed everyday a few crickets - i want to make sure theyre eating.

thanks for approving of my care sheet uve fought me on a few topics before - so its good to get your acceptance on this one haha

 

[M_surinamensis]

I would appreciate any reviews of the care sheet (anything inaccurate? anything you feel I should add?) before I actually make the site live (probably in a month or so)

I just want to make this clear. You did ask for this.

"A 10 gallon tank with a screen top is sufficient for 1 adult leopard gecko"

Questionable due to the far narrower thermal gradients involved. While it can be done, most people will have difficulty properly heating a ten gallon tank.

"At the bottom of the tank add the substrate."

Oddly phrased- given that it is difficult to add it anywhere else, gravity being what it is and the word substrate meaning what it does.

"sand or another loose substrate, but this would be the worst substrate choice."

The use of the superlative makes this statement flat out incorrect. There are plenty of things which would be far worse substrate choices than sand and sand is not even the worst choice of what is available from pet stores. The problems some people have with sand are due to an inability to use it correctly and to appropriately manage the risks.

"Reptiles are susceptible to impaction"

No. Reptiles can become impacted but they are not particularly susceptible to it as a group. Once again your wording is highly misleading and the result is inaccuracy.

"They are nocturnal reptiles"

Crepuscular. Not nocturnal.

"These humid hides are usually a geckos favorite spot"

Your geckos prefer it, because of the ambient conditions in your enclosures and you're jumping to a conclusion based on that. The plural of anecdote is not data. The reasons a gecko will physically place itself in any spot in the enclosure at any given time are somewhat varied but generally predictable, or at least explainable. Simple statements like your own there are misleading because they are firm conclusions that are only situationally accurate.

The entire section on supplementation is suspect. The needs and proportions of supplements received by individual geckos will be entirely dependent on the specific condition of that individual animal. Your broad, across the board recommendations are inappropriate because you do not acknowledge the variables in the needs of the animals. Underdosing and overdosing are both very real possibilities based on what you have written.

"they very rarely eat fruit and vegetables"

Don't leave that in there.

You again list some supplementation tips in the feeding section, describing dusting. You again fail to even mention the possibility of variable needs.

"Pick crickets that are smaller than the size between your geckos eyes. Anything bigger may impact the gecko. "

That is not why that rule of thumb exists.

"You can also supplement your crickets diet by leaving a small dish of mealworms in the tank"

Read that carefully. I am almost positive it does not say what you meant it to say.

The handling section has a few indications that your concepts of animal behavior are a bit off.

The recommended reading consists of a single book, which I suspect is all you yourself have read.



If you want a completely honest opinion, the entire page needs to be torn down and redone from scratch. Or more likely replaced with a better care sheet written by someone more experienced and knowledgeable than you yourself are. It is plainly evident that you are still very much in the process of learning and are not personally all that experienced. If I had to guess I'd say you have had less than ten geckos for somewhere between six months and a year.

When you set out to be an educational resource, you are assuming an obligation. The obligation to be the very best you can possibly be, to provide more and better information than anyone else who has gone before you has done. If you are not doing that, then your efforts are redundant at best, damaging at worst because someone who does not know any better may come along and find what you have produced rather than something better produced by someone else. Your caresheet, put plainly, fails to meet that obligation.

If you really feel an need to have a caresheet on your site right now, then find a good one and ask the person who authored it for permission to repost the contents or to link directly to someplace they themselves have hosted it. Providing one that is inaccurate and incomplete is counterproductive to the idea of education.

Most people are right there with you, there's nothing insulting or personal about it. Just give yourself a decade and keep a few hundred or a few thousand geckos, read everything anyone else writes and keep your own notes on any techniques you try and what the results are, then come back after ten years and write a good one.

 

[aburningflame]

I appreciate your honesty but i think "the entire page needs to be torn down and redone from scratch" is just being downright rude.

I am providing information based on my experience and everything I have researched. I will take into account all of your points and further reinforce the care sheet.

Sorry for attempting to educate based on my experiences.

contrary to your belief - i did put a lot of work into it and i will not "tear it down" - i will continue to update it based on what i research and read and it will become better.

 

[aburningflame]

It is plainly evident that you are still very much in the process of learning and are not personally all that experienced. If I had to guess I'd say you have had less than ten geckos for somewhere between six months and a year.


Yes, your assumptions are correct. i Have 5 geckos for somewhere between six months a year. I have 100 posts on this forum in 1month. Im not an idiot - I do my research and i work with my geckos everyday.

You are incorrect to say thats the only book ive read - ive read 2 published so far.
Ive also read a ton on this forum and a ton through Google. The care sheet is not done - which is why I was asking for opinions before being released.

It is amazing how people are so quick to jump - you dont have to be a complete expert to provide useful and informative information. I can teach you how to bypass the ignition sensor on a grand am - am i a mechanic? No. Can i teach you properly ? Yes.

Anyways - its fine - i realize me asking for opinions is susceptible to people who just wanna tear me down.

I have the passion to succeed and your harsh words will not stop me.

Appreciate your review.

 

[aburningflame]

"Pick crickets that are smaller than the size between your geckos eyes. Anything bigger may impact the gecko. " - Can you educate me on this one?

I have read that the reason for the rule was that bigger could impact the gecko.

 

[M_surinamensis]

You missed the point entirely.

Step away from yourself for a second. Do not take anything I have said personally. Follow the logic below.

1) The purpose of a care sheet is to educate the reader.
2) Education for the reader needs to be thorough and complete on the topic or it is no longer educational.
3) If an educational resource already exists that is better than the new effort, the new efforts are redundant at best.
4) Some people among the target audience, will only take the time to investigate one source of information.
5) Those people do not have the ability to determine when a resource is incomplete, misleading or inaccurate.
6) Incomplete, misleading or inaccurate sources of information are counterproductive to the goal of education.

It is a well intentioned sentiment, your desire to help other people learn. Good intentions are not a substitute for good information though. What you have produced is incomplete, if you want to educate people you would be better served in that goal by showing them more thorough and more accurate resources, at this time anyway, while you yourself are still a novice. A link page perhaps- get permission from others who have written caresheets and provide banner ads and some commentary on what already exists. Rather than being an information source- which you are not capable of doing adequately yet- be an information hub and show the world everything you have found that was particularly good. Link to one site and mention how it has thorough information on feeding and nutrition, link to another and mention how it has the best housing information you have ever seen, link to a third that deals with sexing, breeding and genetics.

Incomplete and inaccurate care sheets kill animals and result in those godawful forum posts where someone is trying to figure out why their animal is sick when they followed all these instructions they found online. I am asking you not to contribute to that. I am asking you to recognize and acknowledge your own inexperience and to defer the role of teacher to those who are better qualified.

You're going to do what you're going to do... but unless your efforts can excise the mistakes present in your draft and simultaneously become better than resources that already exist then you're doing more harm than good.

 

[aburningflame]

Ok. I understand that.
However, can't I provide my information as a supplement to other information.

For example - I want to provide my care sheet - as well as link to others.

I am not narrow minded - I highly suggest in reading many different sources. Research, common sense, and educated decisions are key to healthy animals.

My attempt at a care sheet is not the end all of care sheets - however, I am providing information based on my experience.

The fact that I am asking for this forums review - should show that i understand the responsibility of being an educator. I could have just made that thing live without saying a word - youll notice www.torontoleopardgeckos.com is not online yet.

I am looking to make it better and the suggested reading section will have tons of links (1 to this forum, ron trempers care sheets, other care sheets)

Is this ok by you?

 

[aburningflame]

here is an example of another care sheet:
look who it is written by


http://www.leopardgecko.com/leopard-gecko-care

I think mine provides better information than that one to be honest :S

 

[aburningflame]

I have a few questions - for my research:

The entire section on supplementation is suspect. The needs and proportions of supplements received by individual geckos will be entirely dependent on the specific condition of that individual animal. Your broad, across the board recommendations are inappropriate because you do not acknowledge the variables in the needs of the animals. Underdosing and overdosing are both very real possibilities based on what you have written.

Can you educate me on when these proportions would be modified?
I do understand the risk of D3 overdose - although this has been subject to much debate. But if you could just give me a few words based on the above I would really appreciate it. Ron Tremper has suggested leaving some vitamin mineral powder in the cage - other research has led me to believe that this should not be done. Which source is correct?

"Pick crickets that are smaller than the size between your geckos eyes. Anything bigger may impact the gecko. "
That is not why that rule of thumb exists

Can you educate me on why this rule exists - I have also read that
geckos body length in inches x 2 is a good rule of thumb as well.

 

[aburningflame]

Here is my educated guess on #1 please comment.

I think what you mean by overdosing/underdosing is this.

A 1:1 ratio is fine for a healthy, normal gecko.
A gecko who displays a lack of energy at dusk/dawn or may not be feeding well should have proportion shifted towards more multivitamin.

A gecko who displays signs of weak/soft bones, anything related to MBD should have its dusting proprtions shifted towards calcium + D3.

Are these assumptions correct?

 

[M_surinamensis]

I have a few questions - for my research:

I want to make this clear right here and now... I am not going to write a caresheet for you. I don't write them for the same reason I don't think you should write one. Someone else has already done it and in most cases, what the best ones produced is better than what I would.

I'll answer what you asked, because you wanted clarification of my criticisms, but I'll be damned if I am going to go back and forth co-authoring a caresheet with you through clarifications and corrections.

Can you educate me on when these proportions would be modified?

Constantly.

No two animals will ever have exactly, perfectly identical metabolic needs because no two geckos will ever have perfectly identical environmental conditions, diets or physiological makeups. Most of the time the differences in the needs of two animals that are similar will be close enough so that their own systems can regulate use but to provide a few obvious examples... a young gecko and an adult gecko will not have the same needs, a breeder and a pet will not have the same needs, one kept a few degrees hotter will experience an increased metabolism and will have different needs than one kept slightly cooler, the diet of the prey items fed to one gecko will not contain identical nutrients to those fed to another.

Supplementation is intended to fill in dietary gaps based on the needs of the animal being supplemented. Not every animal will need the same amounts of those nutrients that are being added. The proportions and frequency of supplementation should always be flexible, adjusted to the animal in question based on the best understanding of its needs on the part of the owner. Most pet owners will not have access to the tools of knowledge required to genuinely test the exact requirements and current state of their gecko- but everyone can eyeball things and everyone should be able to predict a reasonably accurate model based on generalities (i.e.- when breeding, females will need additional vitamins, calcium and other minerals in their diet and an increased caloric intake).

I do understand the risk of D3 overdose - although this has been subject to much debate. But if you could just give me a few words based on the above I would really appreciate it. Ron Tremper has suggested leaving some vitamin mineral powder in the cage - other research has led me to believe that this should not be done. Which source is correct?

Really depends on numerous other factors. It is not a question of which source is correct but a question of which method is best for the individual keeper and the individual animal.

Can you educate me on why this rule exists

Because leopard geckos do not chew their food particularly well and physical damage can be done to the throat and surrounding tissue (including the nerves of the spinal column) is they force down a prey item that is too large.

Additionally, even if you discount that (possible but not entirely probable) extreme negative consequence, it has to do with the way reptiles digest. The acids in a reptile's stomach are not particularly strong relative to other groups of animals. They also have fairly minimal peristalsis. They do not easily dissolve and they do not grind up food that well as part of the digestive process. Their digestion is largely a result of enzyme action and consequentially they digest food items from the outside in- the shape and surface area of the food relative to the total mass are an important factor in how well an item is digested and how well the mass of the meal is passed through the digestive system. Larger insects have a poorer ratio of surface area to mass (and thicker layers of less digestible tissue) and are not processed as well as smaller prey items. Too small of course, and they end up ignoring the prey items or potentially damaging their face as they smash into it rather than cleanly biting.

Using a rule of thumb based on a proportional measurement of the gecko allows all of these issues to be avoided.

 

[aburningflame]

I'll answer what you asked, because you wanted clarification of my criticisms, but I'll be damned if I am going to go back and forth co-authoring a caresheet with you through clarifications and corrections.

If you didn't wanna review my caresheet then you shouldn't have clicked on a post named review my caresheet. It was obvious you came here with the intention to criticize me.

It seemed like you were looking for something to jump on.
I will write my care sheet and I will continue to improve it.

Despite my dislike for the way you approached it - I do think your information was extremely helpful and informative.

Thank you for your review.

 

[M_surinamensis]

If you didn't wanna review my caresheet then you shouldn't have clicked on a post named review my caresheet.

What I said was that I would not be responsible for co-authoring a caresheet with you through extensive corrections, clarifications, edits and additions.

I have pointed out why your sheet is inadequate. I am unwilling to write a care sheet for you to read, just so you can translate it over to the one you yourself are writing. The amount of work that would be required to get your caresheet to a place where it was satisfactory is more effort than I am willing to spend explaining the problems that you do not seem to be aware exist.

Which is, incidentally, why I suggested that you scrap it and get permission to repost or link to an existing care guide that has already been authored by someone qualified to do so. Helping you write it would require someone else to come along, remove portions of what you have already written and then contribute more to it than you have. If I were at all inclined to put in that much work, I'd just put my own name on it and skip your involvement entirely.

I am going to put this bluntly, you do not know enough to know how much you don't know. That puts you in an absolutely terrible state if you're trying to be an educator. You're unwilling to acknowledge your own limitations. Take a look at your leopard gecko book there... consider the information it contains, the details, the variables, the explanations. That and more is the sort of information you would need to be able to provide if you wanted to write a care guide that was actually contributing something. You're simply incapable of doing so at this time. A fact that will be readily apparent to anyone who reads your caresheet who does not themselves need a caresheet. And a fact that will not be clear to anyone who genuinely does need a care sheet- the very ones who need the information the most are the only ones who are going to fall prey to inappropriate sources.

It was obvious you came here with the intention to criticize me.

Or praise you. The contents of your care sheet determined which one it was going to be.

I will write my care sheet and I will continue to improve it.

Good. Just don't make it available for public viewing until it has been massively overhauled and is actually worth following.

Although right now it is evident that you should be reading more and writing less. As it is, you have this whole blind leading the blind thing going on.

Despite my dislike for the way you approached it

I take education and the sharing of information very seriously. Nobody gets gold stars for participation. Crappy care sheets kill animals. Dead animals piss me off. Especially when they're dead because someone got ahead of themselves and felt that they were qualified to do something they were not.

 

[aburningflame]

I think my care sheet is much better than any information any pet store would provide. It is not meant to have every damn piece of information you would need. It is basic care and feeding.

You may be very good with geckos, but you are absolutely horrible with people.
From your first post you have made me feel stupid.

You have been nothing but aggressive and condescending.

So ....thanks for making me feel like crap. Appreciate it.