"Classic carrottails" vs. my carrottails

SFgeckos

New Member
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842
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CA
I've gotten a few questions pertaining to photos of carrottails I've posted- so instead of repeating myself in emails, I figured I'ld just post photos/information here. Let me know if you have any specific questions and I'll try my best to answer them!

As far as I know, the "classic" carrottail bloodline originated from Ray Hine in the UK in the late 1990s. A small handful of breeders in the US obtained carrottails from his line and began introducing tangerine lines in the hopes of improving overall body coloration and carrottail percentage. "Carrottails" a decade ago were nothing like you see now, the majority of the animals were only 20-40% carrottails, with a few VERY expensive individuals having 50-75%. I started humbly working with the "Hine" carrottails in 2001, below is a photo of the best one I produced in 2002 (if you can't see the picture, please see this old link:) http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.php?id=26834

431superstudmale1-med.JPG


In my experience, the "Hine" carrottail bloodlines hatch out as bright yellow banded animals and as they age their bands/spots fade away to produce an almost patternless yellow body (or head if they have the baldy trait) and they "gain" bright orange/almost red carrottail until they are 30-40gram subadults (some animals may take longer to achieve their final carrottail). Some animals from this bloodline in my care, particularly females after breeding, can "lose" carrottail and most adults as they age will have their carrottail coloration "fade" to a duller orange. Generally speaking, pure "Hine" carrottails have bright yellow body colorations and a brighter orange carrottail than the carrottails I've currently been working on. (see photo below, not truly pure Hines carrottails, but closest animals I have!)

431adultCThines-med.jpg


431classicCTvsHOct-med.jpg


I should also mention that when I first started with the "Hine" carrottails, I noticed they had some minor phenotypic traits (example-scales on limbs) and behaviors (example-being more vocal) than the other "normal/high yellow/jungle" and Murphy patternless leopard geckos I was working with at the time. I can't be certain, but some breeders suspected they were possibly a subspecies or had major locality population differences from the leopard geckos in the industry at that time.

My carrottails generally hatch out with banded or jungle/striped patterns and within the first two sheds their "final" carrottail is already evident. Their body coloration can really vary, but they are NOT yellow- the majority of them have varying shades of orange body colorations, dorsal stripes or jungle pattern, and some head spots (I wouldn't call them tangerines, still working on that!)
Below are some examples of my carrottails.

2010

431CTcomparison-med.jpg


2011

4312011CTS-med.jpg


5 gram 2011 carrottail

431bestCT2011update-med.jpg


Comparisons of "classic look" vs my carrottails:

431adultCThinevsCTjho-med.jpg


431CThinevsCTjho-med.jpg


Anyways, I hope this helps to clear up some confusion. Please comment, I'ld like to hear your opinions!

Jon
 
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LeopardShade

Spotted Shadow
Messages
1,001
Location
Western Montana
Great information on Carrot-tails, and great looking geckos as well. I don't think carrot tails get as much attention as they should, they are certainly a very attractive and unique polygenic trait that can have beautiful results. Have you produced any 100% carrot-tails?
 

SFgeckos

New Member
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842
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CA
Thanks for all the compliments!

Travis- I've seen your tangerine lines- they are screamers!

Leopardshade- No, unfortunately the 100% carrottail has eluded me yet again. However, I've gotten several adult pairings that produce 95-99% carrottail almost every egg so I think it is just a matter of time. The most difficult part, as you mentioned, is that the carrottail is a polygenic trait and my best efforts to increase body coloration by doing carrottail x tangerine crosses haven't had the best outcomes (perhaps I am just impatient, so I'll try another decade?). Years ago, I was trying to create both carrottail and "lemontail" (yellow tails instead of carrottails) patternless albinos (rainwater strain) and it took 6 years to create ones with 50% carrottail but the "lemontail" project never took off. The majority of the animals only had 15-20% "lemontails" at best and I gave up both projects when I downsized my leo collection. A large majority of my rainwater patternless albinos went to Japan in 2003, so perhaps somewhere around the global there may be another dedicated hobbyist still working on that project!

Jon
 

Kristi23

Ghoulish Geckos
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16,180
Location
IL
Great post to show the difference! Are yours from patternless stripe genes? Some of them have that look.
 

ILoveGeckos14

New Member
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944
Location
Florida
I'm confused only because im not sure if you are saying the hine line is in your eclipses/patternless stripes or just outlining the differences. Regardless your posts always draw my attention because I love your geckos! :)

Out of curiosity, do you have pictures of the lemon-tail project geckos? Seems interesting even with just 20-25% yellow.
 

SFgeckos

New Member
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842
Location
CA
"Are yours from patternless stripe genes? Some of them have that look."

"I'm confused only because im not sure if you are saying the hine line is in your eclipses/patternless stripes or just outlining the differences. Regardless your posts always draw my attention because I love your geckos!"

The answer to both questions is yes and yes. The first few years after I got pure "Hine" carrottails, I did "Hine" x tangerine crosses like many other people did (best example that comes to my mind- Albey from Albey's Too Cool Reptiles who produces screamers!). In my opinion, I would say that a large majority of the hypo tangerines you see now have some Ray Hine bloodline in them, although there are many exceptions and independent tangerine/hypo tangerine bloodlines. My own "tangerines" at that time were a jumbled mix of various bloodlines- including Bill Brandt tangerines and independent tangerine lines from a local friend (some had deep orange coloration, others had light orange coloration and dorsal stripes). I kept breeding the best offspring together and in 2003 I produced a female I called "Cheeto". Photo from Jan 2004 below:
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.php?id=121005

431truehyoptang-med.JPG


She was the best offspring from my Hine x tangerine crosses, exhibiting almost a baldy head and deep orange body coloration that was close to the same coloration as her low percentage carrottail. I continued to selectively breed her offspring for a few years until I had a decent group of nice hypo tangerines. On the other hand, as most of you who have worked with the Hine x tangerine crosses know, the offspring can range from exactly like the Hine carrottail parent, to the opposite extreme- being an average or high yellow gecko and everything in between. Some of the offspring I produced had higher percentage of carrottail (30-40%), but didn't have the baldy or hypo body. I picked a few with the highest carrottails and began selectively breeding their offspring. Here is a photo from 2005:
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/photo.php?id=224599

43198_carrottailcloseup-med.JPG


So pretty much I had two separate "projects" simultaneously branching and occasionally I would breed individual geckos from the separate groups together producing mixed results. Eventually I had to downsize my leo collection to make way for other species and I picked a handful of my best hypo tangerines, carrottails, and "favorites" I wanted to keep. That year, I forget what year it was, HQ reptiles came out with the "red stripe" that took the leo community by storm! It was pretty much a striped or jungle gecko with tangerine body coloration. I decided they looked cool and added a few red stripe x striped/jungle cross offspring, as well as a few select patternless striped geckos to my colonies. I did several generations of hypo tangerine/carrottail x stripe/patternless stripe producing offspring that showed different phenotypic traits- some of these offspring I bred back to each other and to their parents. Below is a photo of some of that variation:

(Photo 1: hypo tangerine which is the great great grand daughter of Cheetos, next to stripe/patternless stripe cross animals)
(Photo 2: red stripe cross animals, mom and daughters)

At some point (I believe it was 2006 or 2007), "average" looking eclipse geckos randomly popped out of my breedings (at that time, knowledge about the patternless stripe gene being linked to the eclipse gene was unknown) so I kept them back to test breed to their parents and each other. Some of the offspring produced eclipse geckos with high percentage carrottails so I began a separate project to create "carrottail eclipses". At the same time, some of the breedings from the previously mentioned group started to produce a mix of animals exhibiting banded/jungle/stripe patterns and higher percentage carrottails. I kept holding back the best ones, selecting for higher carrottail or deeper orange body coloration to breed back to each other.

So to summarize briefly, this project has been extremely fun and rewarding- but also long and exhausting! The carrottails I produce currently, both eclipse carrottails and "my carrottails" have a combination of Hine carrottail influence, hypo tangerine influence, red stripe cross and patternless stripe cross bloodlines- how much and how diluted over the last decade? I really can't say for sure, but they produce some decent offspring!

Jon
 
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SFgeckos

New Member
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842
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CA
On a side note, I'ld like to ask forum members for assistance. I got an email asking if my carrottails are from "G project" animals?

Honestly, I have no clue what the reference is or who is working with them (sorry I'm out of the loop on leos), but I can assure you that I have never purchased any "G" animals. If anyone has information, preferably first hand experience, please share! Thanks!

Jon
 

Wild West Reptile

Leopards AFT Ball Pythons
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1,863
Location
San Jose, CA
Thanks Jon.

The "G" project stands for "Green" project. I think Craig at urban gecko introduced them, but I may be wrong. I do know that Pat Kline of LL works with them if you want to learn more about the genetics. They basically are really orange looking geckos with awesome carrot tails. But to my eyes, its hard to see green, kinda like the "emerines". You actually commented on this link, but here it is again to refresh your memory! LOL!
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=77617

Also:http://www.theurbangecko.com/leopard-geckos/g-project
 

SFgeckos

New Member
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842
Location
CA
Thanks! I do recall seeing some photos of various animals from that project but I don't know much about their history/lineage. Also, according to the Urban Gecko website it says:

"The G Project is short for the Green Project. We acquired our original colony from an American breeder who was selectively breeding Emerines for more intense green."

Other than that information, I can't seem to find much else.

Jon
 

Gecko Gallery

New Member
Messages
25
Location
Texas
Wonderful work!

As usual, I am a day late on a thread.

My herp partner, Jon, imported some of the first Ray Hine CTs, and I was able to observe and handle what they produced. You've captured those details accurately, and I like what you have done with the progeny. Kelli bought some of Jon's RH CTs. I'm simply wondering how many more forum folks had RH CTs from Jon Esposito, DVM? Reply in this thread or send me a PM. I'm just curious, that's all.

Although I've JUST started again with geckos, my main project will be CTs. Now I am the first to admit that the CTs of yore have advanced tremendously. There are also plenty of rivals to the "classic" CTs. Sunglows just to name one. Emerines to name another. And . . . all the line bred Tangerine lines now in gecko rooms all over the world. But . . . I enjoy the CTs above all morphs.

Again, nice work.
 

SFgeckos

New Member
Messages
842
Location
CA
Thank you Shannon for the compliments. Indeed, I got my original Hine carrottails from Dr. Esposito over a decade ago. I got mine a few weeks after Kelli did!

Also, my compliments to both of you on The Pigeon Guide you both co-authored around that same time. I have a copy in my library and it looks like it might become a collector's item! =) If you ever get a chance to speak with Dr. Esposito, please send him my best regards. I'm sure he will be delighted to see how far the carrottails have advanced!

Jon
 
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