Confusion about RAPTORs

[JohnJohn]

I'm new to this forum, but not new to reptiles. I've only been breeding geckos a few years. I might have a lot of questions for you all.

OK, I want to ask the experts here what really consitutes a RAPTOR.

The acronym says "ruby eyed patternless tremper orange". However, I see RAPTORs for sale that vary greatly in the level of pattern. Everything from completely pattrenless to very patterned animals that just look like regular Trempers.

What exactly constitutes the "patternless" of a RAPTOR. Does this mean actually patternless, or no brown spots, or what?

I tracked the breeding of two Tremper albino het raptors this season (my first time with het RAPTORs). Most of the babies were normal Trempers. One was ruby-eyed with dark ruby red eyes, but not exactly what I would call "patternless" Would this be a Ruby-eyed Tremper, and not a real RAPTOR? One other was a beautiful very colorful and truly patternless orange baby. I'm assuming this would be properly referred to as an APTOR.

Maybe I'm being picky, but are there a lot of Ruby-eyed Trempers out there being lablled as RAPTORs just because they have ruby eyes?

What really constitutes a RAPTOR? or an APTOR for that matter?

 

[Wandering Paddle]

To keep things simple most people refer to eclipse tremper albinos as raptors. If it is patternless stripe than people may call it a classic raptor. there are also banded raptors and jungle raptors and reverse stripe raptors...

 

[BlackDiamondGeckos]

To keep things simple most people refer to eclipse tremper albinos as raptors. If it is patternless stripe than people may call it a classic raptor. there are also banded raptors and jungle raptors and reverse stripe raptors...

+1

 

[ang3l3s]

+2, not that it makes sense but it simplifies things

 

[crotaphytidae]

but remember not to confuse the patternless stripe in raptors with Murphy Patternless which is completely separate and is the third component in Embers (Eclipse+Tremper Albino+ Murphy Patternless)

 

[JohnJohn]

Thanks! That's exactly what I was thinking.

So here's a related question about RAPTORs vs. Blazing Blizzards vs. Blancos.

As I understand it the patternless gene for RAPTORs is different from others, but what does that mean when crossing RAPTOR to Blazing Blizzards to make DBs? Does that mean that the DBs have two separate sources of patternless genes, one from the Blizzard gene and one from the RAPTOR?

More specifically, is there any difference between making Blazing Blizzards with a APTOR crossed to Blizzard compared to just crossing a regular Tremper and a Blizzard?

 

[crotaphytidae]

The patternless stripe is heritable but it isn't fully understood how it works. As far as a visual difference between an aptor produced blazing and a regular tremper produced blazing I wouldn't think that there would be any difference but genetically, I don't know.

 

[acpart]

I haven't worked with raptors but have worked with patternless red stripes. I find that some of the PRS are born with very few black markings, and I would call those true PRS. Some of them, though, gain more blotches and black spots as they mature, but I still of them as PRS, in the same way that a hatchling born with black and white stripes as a Mack snow is still a Mack snow even if it yellows when it matures. For that reason I could imagine calling a gecko with some beige spots or blotches a raptor (as long as it has the other characteristics of course) if it was born essentially patternless, but I would not call a gecko with ruby eyes born banded a raptor.

ALiza

 

[Wandering Paddle]

I haven't worked with raptors but have worked with patternless red stripes. I find that some of the PRS are born with very few black markings, and I would call those true PRS. Some of them, though, gain more blotches and black spots as they mature, but I still of them as PRS, in the same way that a hatchling born with black and white stripes as a Mack snow is still a Mack snow even if it yellows when it matures. For that reason I could imagine calling a gecko with some beige spots or blotches a raptor (as long as it has the other characteristics of course) if it was born essentially patternless, but I would not call a gecko with ruby eyes born banded a raptor.

ALiza

I mostly agree that banded tremper eclipses should not be classified as raptors, but that only makes things more confusing. the 'P' in aptor and raptor is already confusing enough for most people. The sad truth about a lot of gecko owners is that they have no idea how the genetics of their geckos work at all or even what they have most of the time... the simplest thing would have been to call them eclipse patternless stripe trempers from the beginning, oh well...

 

[Allee Toler]

I have a banded tremper eclipse, I call it a RABTOR, b for banded instead of P for patternless. But that's because I think it's funny. Lol.

Anyways.

Lu's parents are both "classic" RAPTORs. Completely patternless, and full red eyes. Lu and a couple other clutchmates came out with bands, and eclipse ruby eyes. I was given Lu for free, because LLL sold me a super snow that died from impaction caused by THEM keeping their geckos on wood chips, so Dean (one of the workers at the store by me) gave me his RA'B'TOR holdback. Both the parents were offspring of "classic" RAPTORs as well. So he's not sure why three of the fourteen babies have slight banding.

Any explanations? I'd love to know. I still wouldn't call him a RAPTOR, but RABTOR is kind of catchy. Lol.

 

[Pickles457]

RABTOR:main_laugh: thats pretty good.

 

[acpart]

As far as why the product of 2 patternless stripes can be banded, the genetics of striping seem to be complex so it's not like a simple recessive like albino where all the offspring of 2 albinos will be albino. I imagine that 2 patternless stripes could produce anything from bandeds to jungles, to stripes to patternless stripes.

Aliza

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Despite the fact that most people on here shot down my incomplete recessive (as seen in many selectively bred mammals i.e. horses, rats, mice...) theory on stripe patterns, im sticking by it until someone can prove otherwise

 

[ang3l3s]

I have a banded tremper eclipse, I call it a RABTOR, b for banded instead of P for patternless. But that's because I think it's funny. Lol.

I said this on another post where someone wanted to know how to get banded raptors. I kinda got crucified by others and others agreed. All in all the thread ended with raptor just being a simple way of distinguishing a morph, furthermore a buddy of mine who breeds quite a bit told me that raptors were made from stripes to get the patternless in the raptor thus some raptors get bands.The wiki made an error on how the raptor was made from what i heard . Either way there all beautiful but i have the patternless type and would really like to get some banded!!!

 

[Allee Toler]

Next year I'll be breeding him. ;] And I'm not worried about pricing them ridiculously high. Lol. If they sell for $75, then they sell.

He's a gorgeous boy, and definitely reps the banded RAPTOR image. His bands are purple, and outlined with orange, and yellow between the bands, with an orange head and orange legs. No carrot though. Lol. He's only 9 weeks old today, so hopefully he gets prettier and prettier.

As for the RAPTOR naming a morph, I DO agree that they shouldn't be called Banded Raptors, and there should be no Stripe Raptors, or Jungle Raptors. It should simply be a change of one letter. RABTOR RASTOR RAJTOR etc. It's not THAT difficult to guess what the added letter is if you know anything about RAPTORs. Technically, I have a ruby eyed albino banded tremper orange. But I shouldn't have to type it out every time JUST because I have a banded instead of a patternless. And saying Banded Tremper Eclipse doesn't give it enough justice for how pretty it is.

I've never been bashed for calling him a RAPTOR. Lol. But I prefer to use a name that represents my little Lu, and RAPTOR simply isn't it. Super RABTOR!!

 

[Wandering Paddle]

a stripe raptor is a raptor. p = patternless stripe = reverse stripe + stripe

 

[Allee Toler]

Then how come my banded isn't a RAPTOR? It's parents are classic RAPTORs, and their parent's are too. Just a few babies had bands from the pair. And I don't see why people make SUCH a big deal about someone calling a Banded RAPTOR what it is.

I'm no genius with genetics, I'll never be either, I slept though biology both years I had to take it (I failed the first, Lol).

So explain to me why my Banded RAPTOR isn't a RAPTOR, though both the parents are. It doesn't make sense to me, and no one's explained it to me, they just tell me he's not a RAPTOR.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

Stripes are recessive, but not simple recessive. They can act as "unlockers" for jungle patterns, eclipse eyes, etc.... breeding two stripe geckos in theory should produce stripe offspring (check out the A&M geckos "rainbow stripe project"), however, in practice this doesn't always play out. There are different strains of stripe patterns as well, this is especially true in bold stripes. anyway, your raptor probably carries stripe genetics but bands are dominate. also; if it is tremper and eclipse im going to call it a raptor just for the sake of simplicity

Why do RAPTOR threads always seem to make it to multiple pages?

 

[Allee Toler]

Thanks for the explanation. Everyone keeps saying "it's not a raptor =P It has bands". Well DUH it has bands... pretty bands too. lavender and tangerine look pretty together. =D

 

[Wandering Paddle]

i love when tangerine geckos are born with lavender bands... they usually fade but its still gorgeous.