culling?

[daniellebluetoo]

After a very interesting 2008, dealing with the mealworm fiasco, and enigma abnormalities.... i'ts left me thinking.... What does every one cull?

now I'm not talking about actually putting down an animal so lets not go there on this thread, but I'm talking about culling from the breeding pool.

eye deformities?
MBD?
tail kinks?
abnormal behavior (enigmas or other)?
slow growers/ poor eaters?

Anything else?

What does every one feel/know is genetic, or caused by environmental aspects, and do you cull either way reguardless?

Curious....

So I'll start...


I have several enigmas to be bred this season, I plan on culling for any suspicious behavior.

AND pretty much everything else I listed above in ANY of my stock.

 

[snowgyre]

I know this is a little off topic, but I'm quite curious about 'abnormal enigma behavior'. I haven't worked with the morph but I've heard they can be hyperactive, is there some kind of detrimental behavior that's been observed?

As for culling, I don't allow any animals to breed that hatch with shorter than normal tails (stubby tails, tails where the segments are obviously thinner and more numerous closer to the vent and then are normal width farther down the tail). I know others avoid breeding animals with tail kinks, even minor ones (although I think some minor tail kinks are actually caused by shedding issues with young animals, I've had some very minor issues with my giants kinking tails while trying to pull shed off because their proportions are so lanky).

I also know others do not allow animals that are smaller than normal (ie. don't reach the standard 50g mark for females) to breed.

 

[daniellebluetoo]

ooops, I didn't realize

i put this in the wrong section..... If a mod could move it THAT would be awesome!!!!!!


Ah, short tails, forgot about that one...... what causes that?>... i agree I don't think all tail kinks are genetic either.

 

[Gregg M]

Personally, I do not allow weak or bad genetics to thrive in my collection at all... Pretty much any deformed hatchling is instantly culled, minor or severe... I have plenty of Varanids that readily accept geckos as prey... To me that is the best way to cull deformed or weak hatchlings... If the animal must die, it might as well be put to use...

I do not believe in rasing animals that are physically or genetically weak... Those traits can easily be propagated into the population and make more weak animals... Survival of the fittest... If it is failing to thrive on its own, it should be culled... Although there is no natural selection in captive breeding, we as breeders should do as nature does when it comes to propagating fit animals...
Thats my opinion...

 

[daniellebluetoo]

Gregg, I completley agree!

whats your stand on tail kinks, and MBD?>

personally tail kinks don't bother me much, but I look at each on a case by case basis too.

MBD, I'm not sure where I stand either.....I had a few cases come up in my hatchlings from late summer, and they ALL had the same regimen of calcium free choice and dusted feeders ect. They won't be bred, I feel there *might* be a genetic connection there, maybe something prevented them form utilizing the calcium? I don't know....

Has any one ever bred an MBD gecko and what were the results?.. curious.....


anyone about the shortened tails?

 

[LZRDGRL]

Would you cull this gecko?

She's one of my Bell Enigmas, and although a few weeks old is too "clumsy" to catch small live crickets. Instead, she bites into the paper towel on which the cricket HAS been sitting (and took off as soon as she snapped) and tries to eat the paper towel...

She looked very dehydrated already. But I found out a way to feed her: I set her on the floor, bang a couple of crickets on the head so that they still move a leg (ahem, sorry!!), and hold them in front of her face.

She ate four crickets yesterday, and four today, and seems really happy! I would not cull her. I hope that some day she grows out of her Enigma trouble and can catch live prey by herself. If not, she'll either stay with me or will be adopted by somebody who has the time and feeling to care for her and handfeed her.

Chrissy

 

[daniellebluetoo]

unfortunatly,

I have to say that I would.......I have to say that I have had a few "clumsy" enigmas already, they either learn to eat, or they go. I personally think it's irresponsible to sell "special needs" geckos. If you must adopt out then do so, but then you run the risk of some moron breeding her.:main_thumbsdown:
JMHO

 

[LeapinLizards]

I would respond, but just read Gregg's post, as that is how I feel.

 

[Gregg M]

whats your stand on tail kinks, and MBD?>

See my original post...

 

[daniellebluetoo]

Gregg, so you consider tail kinks and MBD genetic?

I guess thats what I was getting at, that you think these are genetic or acquired, and if that makes a difference? Ie, if you had an older gecko acquire those things?

 

[Gregg M]

Danielle, I think those things "could" be genetic therefore I refuse to even chance it... I always give the animal a chance to "improve" but if it fails to thrive on its own accord or hatches with an obvious defect, it gets culled...

Some people think it is not cool or even cruel to cull an animal because of minor defects... I think it is the responsible thing to do for the hobby and the captive population... I would rather have a genetically fit normal that looks muddy and dull than have a weak gecko with intense coloration... Sure, weak defective geckos can be nursed and appear to be strong and healthy, but are they really???

I know thay ANY gecko someone gets from me will be strong and free of defects... I would want the same when aquiring geckos from other breeders...

Do I enjoy culling??? Not at all... I love my animals and it is always a hard choice to make but I am realistic and understand the importance of propagating only strong lines...

 

[daniellebluetoo]

Well said Gregg!

Thank YOU!

 

[Alusdra]

Culling by feeding to another animal doesn't really bother me too much, as the animal is going to a purpose in that case (and something has to be fed to them, anyway). But *should* they be culled? I think that's a personal choice. Absolutely they should not be bred in any way shape or form. And yeah, you run the risk of some idiot breeding a gecko with issues if you adopt them out. But that isn't to say that geckos with all sorts of problems can't have great lives with the right owner.

If the deformity is something that is going to affect the gecko's quality of life- like NO eyelids, for example, then they should be culled (humanely). But MBD? Tail kinks? That stuff can happen even due to bad husbandry. Not that this is the case for you guys- but every time you sell a baby gecko, the risk for MBD is there with a new and uneducated owner. But if you can get them through that rough patch, the animal might be more friendly and handleable (and thus a better pet) due to the extra attention.

I have 6 abnormal geckos, 2 geriatrics (with associated problems) and one normal (probably). One is recovered from MBD and he gets around and eats great (he's now 9 years old). Several have short, kinked, or otherwise odd tails, which doesn't seem to affect them at all. Four are enigmas with varying problems. With the enigmas, it is in the back of my mind that their problems might be too awful for it to be really fair to keep them going, but even the worst one seems to be starting to thrive.

So for most of these deformities, I think it is really something the breeder has to decide. If you don't think you can get a responsible home and/or the problem is severe enough, it might be best to cull. But there are suckers out there that have the same problem I do with turning away these little messed up kiddos. It's a lot of work, sure, but I definitely don't mind.

 

[Gregg M]

I understand your point fully... You are 100% correct in the fact that it is a personal choice...
Personally, I do not breed reptiles to "adopt" out weak animals... I breed reptiles to produce the strongest animals possible...

My opinion in this is that anyones view is right... It is the breeders choice to make... It may be a hard one to make but one anyone who breeds has to face...

Culling goes on more often than alot of people think and a lot of breeders will not admit doing this...