Depressed Leo

[Tempest09]

My male leo seems depressed and not in the "I feel like crying" way either. I bought a new tank for my trio last week and transferred them over. Everything is relatively in the same place but the tank is larger. The temps are the same however. I also noticed last week all three of the were highly irritable towards each other with a lot of nipping going on. I suspect they might have been breeding but I was home only a little last week and didn't spend a lot of time observing them except when I fed. He's not lethargic or anything and wonders around the perimeter of the tank like he's trying to find a way out (he's an escape artist) then settles in a corner to watch everyone. Doesn't sleep a lot and he is bright eyed and notices things going on. He responds to me as usual, not particularly interested in being held or bothered but he won't eat for the last few days. I dangle a grouchy cricket in front of him and even his favorite waxworms and he just seems disinterested. He's even lost interest in the girls, not that I can blame him after their attitudes last week. In all, he just seems depressed. Any theories?

 

[OhioGecko]

Can you take a pic of the new enclosure and post it here?

What is the hot side temps?

How are you heating the cage?

 

[Tempest09]

No pics, no digital camera, but temp runs from high 80's and low 90's down to 70's. That hasn't changed at all and the smaller females are acting more or less normal besides last week's nipping fest. I heat my from the top with a red lamp and a regular white bulb during the day. I prefer the air to be warm not just the substrate. That and they have a tendancy to dig and I don't want them to be burned on anything.

 

[Tempest09]

It is a 40 gallon tank, moist hide towards the back corner on the hot side and dry on on the cool side, water and everything in the middle. There is more open space then before and I'm curious if that might be bothering him? The girls don't seem to care less. The odd thing that has me a little worried is he never acted like this when I got him and brought him home. That was a highly drastic change for all three of them and the never stressed, and definately never lost their appetite. They are typically very interested in their food.

 

[OhioGecko]

No pics, no digital camera, but temp runs from high 80's and low 90's down to 70's. That hasn't changed at all and the smaller females are acting more or less normal besides last week's nipping fest. I heat my from the top with a red lamp and a regular white bulb during the day. I prefer the air to be warm not just the substrate. That and they have a tendancy to dig and I don't want them to be burned on anything.

what are you using as a substrate?

 

[Tempest09]

EcoEarth that's partially packed and mostly dry thanks to the geckos themselves and the lamp. They don't eat it as I watch them closely when they're feeding. What little they manage to get in their mouth they spit out without hesitation. It's the same I use in the hide and it's kept damp in there but not wet. When they shed I mist the tank to raise the humidity slightly since the girls are hide hogs.

 

[Tempest09]

The lady that sold them to me said they had come to her missing toes and I don't know if that was true or not but I assumed as much since she raised red tail boas. But they are all missing a couple toes so I just keep an eye on them so they don't have shedding problems. Still, it's only the male that seems bothered.

 

[grboxa]

Theres no reason why you cant have a UTH. I have a UTH with a red bulb on all the time and its fine. I think you should invest in a UTH for the best interest of your gecko they need the surface temperature more then the air temperature...assuming you dont already have one.

edit - And I'm sure i wont be the only one whos going to come along and say lose the eco-earth.

 

[reps4life]

EcoEarth that's partially packed and mostly dry thanks to the geckos themselves and the lamp. They don't eat it as I watch them closely when they're feeding. What little they manage to get in their mouth they spit out without hesitation. It's the same I use in the hide and it's kept damp in there but not wet. When they shed I mist the tank to raise the humidity slightly since the girls are hide hogs.

There is a wide range of possibilities. He can be stressed from the change. The girls can be stressing him out or worst he can be ill. Eco earth is a bad idea for geckos. They walk around licking everything and can digest some that way. When they defecate some of the eco earth can be pulled back in by their hemipene causing infection. I would suggest using ceramic tiles instead. It might be a good idea to put the male in a seperate enclosure if he continues to refuse food. If that does not help than a vet visit is in order.

 

[Tempest09]

I'm not worried about the eco-earth and doubt it is an infection. I've handled all of them constantly since I've got them and they show no signs of it at all. Like I said he is not showing any signs of being sick other then not eating. He's active and bright eyed and gives me his usual dirty look when I bother him to pick him up. He's curled up in the hide with one of the females right now which is a change. Most times he patrols the perimeter of the cage and with stand up in the corners trying to find his usual way out. Then he just settles in a corner where he can watch everyone and sleep alternately.
He just refuses to eat, and I've tried wax worms which he loves. It's only been the last four days or so ever since the girls got grouchy and I moved tanks.

 

[nnoossss]

Well wether or not hes showing signs now or later down the road whats best for him should still be your concern. With the food thing has he been pooping at all? Try seperating them and put a bowl off mealies in the cage with him over night and most off all stop handling him at a stressful time like this.

 

[Tempest09]

Everyone's opinion on substrate is different and I've had no problems so far with it. I don't use sand, it's too hard to make sure they aren't eating accidentally or on purpose. I prefer to leave them with something they can dig in. Tiles are cold no matter what and I find that they don't really like any kind of carpet. I did find three poops this morning like I always do and if I can't get him to eat this morning then I'm going to put him in my smaller tank. It's set up with two hides and paper towels with overhead heating. I've read up quite a bit on impaction before I even considered getting them some time ago and started going through stuff again when he decided no to eat but it just doesn't seem to match up at all. I was curious if perhaps anyone had ever experienced a depressed appetite after breeding or perhaps fighting since I'm not entirely certain they bred as I worked most of that week very late. I know its possibly the move that has him upset but even the first day I brought all three of them home from some distance away they never experienced any loss of appetite and settled right in with none of the problems I might have expected. It's just not normal for him is all. You also suggested mealies which I'll have to get a little later today. Is there anything else that might tempt him? He is disinterested in crickets and waxworms even if I hold them in front of him wiggling. Usually they all go nuts for waxworms like they've been starving. It's very amusing.

 

[nnoossss]

The substrate thing is very opinionated because i guess some people think it matches the surroundings more or the reptile likes it, i personally have tile and can tell you that my tiles stay warm from my overhead heat, her hide she stays in stays heated by a uth, i dont want too keep arguing so i will state my opinion really quick, you can go 5 years using sand or whatever you use without problem but that can change, the most experienced bike rider that never falls and doesnt wear a helmet can fall and crack his head open, but if he starts out with a helmet or changes one that is going too greatly reduce him getting hurt.
My leo doesnt like crickets anymore for some reason but loves the worms, when she was a baby i would help her get used too the food by leaving a dish with them in there, which also lets you see if their eating or not.

 

[reps4life]

My male leo seems depressed and not in the "I feel like crying" way either. I bought a new tank for my trio last week and transferred them over. Everything is relatively in the same place but the tank is larger. The temps are the same however. I also noticed last week all three of the were highly irritable towards each other with a lot of nipping going on. I suspect they might have been breeding but I was home only a little last week and didn't spend a lot of time observing them except when I fed. He's not lethargic or anything and wonders around the perimeter of the tank like he's trying to find a way out (he's an escape artist) then settles in a corner to watch everyone. Doesn't sleep a lot and he is bright eyed and notices things going on. He responds to me as usual, not particularly interested in being held or bothered but he won't eat for the last few days. I dangle a grouchy cricket in front of him and even his favorite waxworms and he just seems disinterested. He's even lost interest in the girls, not that I can blame him after their attitudes last week. In all, he just seems depressed. Any theories?

Keep in mind reptiles are masters in disguising illness. Some are more tolerant than others with handling or change. According to the information you have provided there is the possibility it is stress related.

Having more than one gecko in an enclosure makes it difficult to keep track of who is defecating and how often.
Do you have another enclosure you can house him in alone?

 

[Tempest09]

Not really, I don't worry that they match their natural environments. On the other side of that scale as well, some people can ride a bike all their life and never fall. ^.^ I'll keep things the way they are until I find a problem as I see various issues with any and all substrates. Still some would think that they have a natural way to deal with substrates found in the natural habitats since it's what they evolved in so to speak. It makes me curious to find stuff about them in the wild. However I do intend to have him x-rayed as soon as I can get an appointment to make sure. It bothers me since he is usually ravenous. It is possible he has taking a disliking to crickets.
As for a seperate tank I do have one. And as far as poops go, the girls would have to step it up to hide it if the male wasn't.
If I do switch substrates it will be to paper since I'm more comfortable with it and it's easier to do spot cleaning. I'd have to do experimenting with tiles and such in an empty tank until I could find a method that made me happy.

 

[nnoossss]

Yea when mine stopped taking interest in the crickets i was like ???, mine still ate crickets but didnt show interest in them so i pulled out the worms and she loves em.

 

[Tempest09]

Yeah, I've got to go to the store later anyway so we will see. But it just struck me as weird since he's a little pig and usually more gong-ho then the girls. He shows no signs I can see of being sick and with it happening right after them all being grouchy with each other and the move I was curious if fights or breeding could cause a depression like that. It would be the first time they went into a breeding cycle since I've had them as they had just finished when I got them if that's what they did. For a week there they were aggresive towards each other with lots of tail nipping but no damage other then pride maybe . The girls have settled and that's when I noticed he had decided to quite eating. He ate two waxworms right after I moved them but just won't now. I'll see if perhaps mealies will spark his interest.

 

[reps4life]

Not really, I don't worry that they match their natural environments. On the other side of that scale as well, some people can ride a bike all their life and never fall. ^.^ I'll keep things the way they are until I find a problem as I see various issues with any and all substrates. Still some would think that they have a natural way to deal with substrates found in the natural habitats since it's what they evolved in so to speak. It makes me curious to find stuff about them in the wild. However I do intend to have him x-rayed as soon as I can get an appointment to make sure. It bothers me since he is usually ravenous. It is possible he has taking a disliking to crickets.
As for a seperate tank I do have one. And as far as poops go, the girls would have to step it up to hide it if the male wasn't.
If I do switch substrates it will be to paper since I'm more comfortable with it and it's easier to do spot cleaning. I'd have to do experimenting with tiles and such in an empty tank until I could find a method that made me happy.

There has been a few incidents with Leos swallowing paper towels, however I would prefer that anytime over eco-earth which once bulked up and constipated my monitor lizard.
Also if your feeding only one food item they can become tired of it and will refuse it until they are actually starving. Although the fact that he has refused waxworms is unusual.

Can you copy, paste and fill out this questionaire?

http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=70912

 

[OhioGecko]

There is so much wrong here but it sounds like you have your mind made up. Good luck and I hope everything works out for you.

 

[grboxa]

its very sad to hear your so easy going when saying ' they were aggressive for the week with some tail niping '.....you dont realize how much damage that could of done. I agree with thad, its very hard to help someone who already made up there mind....everyone here has given you great advice on how to teat the problem yet you ignore it, forget sand ive actually heard eco earth is the worst substrate to use along with walnut shells as it raises the humidity causing respiratory problems aswell. Take the male out...I hope you take the advice and your gecko starts eating good luck