DOA with Ship your reptiles. Please help.

[adamsky27]

It seems like based on what you said their instructions contradict themselves. Why sell a heat pack in that kit if it's not recommended for that size box? Thank you for the heads up, I will be using this service and I don't want to have the same problem.

 

[Robyn@SYR]

It seems like based on what you said their instructions contradict themselves. Why sell a heat pack in that kit if it's not recommended for that size box? Thank you for the heads up, I will be using this service and I don't want to have the same problem.

It is more subtle than that. You can absolutely use a heat pack in that size box. But not in warm or hot weather. And you don't want the heat pack in direct contact with your container, where the animal cannot escape the direct heat being applied. Some packing material between the heat pack and the container helps alleviate that.

 

[adamsky27]

The main issue with the shipment was temperatures. I believe earlier in the thread you said it was 70F. But when we pulled up the high temp for your zip code 97124 it was 82F for the shipping day. That is already quite warm. Compound that daytime high with a small box and heat pack situated right next to the gecko container and you have a definite overheating issue.

I'm not trying to feed an argument here. I'm just asking for future use. My issue with this statement is this. You go by "daytime high?" From my experience most people drop the animals off sometime in the evening, not around noon or so when the temps are the highest. So what if at 5:00 pm it is below 70? Why does "daytime high" matter if the animal is dropped off after 5 pm and guaranteed delivery by 10:30 am (which still hasn't reached this daytime high)?

 

[Robyn@SYR]

We do use the high temps of the day as the reference point. There has to be a reference point, and the high temps are the single most important factor in selecting a shipping day, and determining heat pack use. The other temperatures throughout the day will be relevant to that daytime high.

Yes, the overnight lows will be lower. And 6pm will be cooler than 1pm (most of the time), but it all remains relevant. If your daytime high temp in either spot is over 70F, you should not use a heat pack. Conversely, if your daytime high is lower than 38F, you should wait for warmer weather to ship.

When it comes to heat, reptiles are much MORE tolerant of cool temps than they are hot temps. I think it is a lot easier to ship in the winter than in the summer.

There are tricks that experienced shippers may know about how to ship successfully when it is close to 100F. There are also tricks you can use to ship when it is exceptionally cold, down into the single digits (still no more than one good heat pack in a typical box, but rather more insulation and shipping to hold at a facility). But for our guidelines we have to be conservative about the ranges so that everyone has the best chance of success.

 

[SpaceCadet]

We do use the high temps of the day as the reference point. There has to be a reference point, and the high temps are the single most important factor in selecting a shipping day, and determining heat pack use. The other temperatures throughout the day will be relevant to that daytime high.

Yes, the overnight lows will be lower. And 6pm will be cooler than 1pm (most of the time), but it all remains relevant. If your daytime high temp in either spot is over 70F, you should not use a heat pack. Conversely, if your daytime high is lower than 38F, you should wait for warmer weather to ship.

When it comes to heat, reptiles are much MORE tolerant of cool temps than they are hot temps. I think it is a lot easier to ship in the winter than in the summer.

There are tricks that experienced shippers may know about how to ship successfully when it is close to 100F. There are also tricks you can use to ship when it is exceptionally cold, down into the single digits (still no more than one good heat pack in a typical box, but rather more insulation and shipping to hold at a facility). But for our guidelines we have to be conservative about the ranges so that everyone has the best chance of success.

I would have appreciated an email regarding this matter, but I have prepared a letter for the owner after Kathy stated she was sending my case to him. In regards to the heat pack again, the low and night time temperatures would have ranged in the 40's which would have been more than enough to kill the leopard gecko without the aid of a heat pack. There was also a buffer between the heat pack, the animal and the packing peanuts.


To whom it may concern,

Examining the dead body of a beloved pet is extremely difficult, but necessary to confirm the cause of death. As someone who has done necropsies in the past I am confident in my ability to confirm the cause of death. The leopard gecko I shipped through your service died from physical trauma as is apparent from the ventral bruising on her chest and belly. After the body dies blood will pool where gravity takes it. Had the animal died from causes other than physical trauma, dorsal bruising would have been more obvious on her back as she was found belly-up, dead. Instead, bruising is localized in her chest cavity and belly area indicating trauma occurred while alive, during shipping.

The website's recommendations directly conflict with the advice given to me by a SYR representative via email (see attached). As a first time shipper I trusted the advice from a SYR representative as being the safest option. After reporting the DOA first by phone, then by email, the same SYR representative that advised me to use the incorrect shipping supplies initially suggested the animal died from hyperthermia due to my use of a heat pack. After confronting her with evidence to the contrary she then stated the animal died of suffocation. This was frustrating for me as the cause of death had already been determined. I had emailed several photos of the animal before and after shipping as well as a detailed explanation of the cause of death, the evidence pointing to such and my previous experience doing necropsies. It was as though she ignored that in favor of an excuse that would not hold SYR liable, despite the suggested reasons for death she had given being irrelevant. It was upsetting that the same SYR representative who advised me to use the wrong shipping supplies would then make inconclusive claims to the possible cause of death based on speculation after the cause of death was already concluded.

The SYR representative then claimed the cause of death was from suffocation due to my use of the heat pack provided. It is now obvious she does not know herself how the animal died, only speculating. The SYR representative explained that it is not advised to use a heat pack in the 7"x7"x6" box to begin with for this reason. After pointing out the shipping kit she originally recommended to me contains a heat back she stated "it's mostly used for winter" and "temperatures this time of year can be tricky". Had I not used a heat pack it is very likely the animal would have died from hypothermia and I would be at fault for not providing a heat pack knowing the night time temperatures would drop significantly during transport. What does that mean for me as a client that uses your service? I have been given conflicting advice since the start of my experience that has resulted in a DOA shipment and could potentially result in future DOA shipments from other clients, especially first time shippers.

Regardless of the cause of death, all of the factors mentioned (suffocation, hyperthermia, and physical trauma) could have been avoided had I been advised by the SYR representative to use the correct, appropriately sized box, as stated on your website. The animal would have had enough air, maintained the correct temperature, and avoided the physical trauma that resulted in her death due to the incorrect advice given to me by the SYR representative. The recipient of the dead animal shipped a similar leopard gecko to me on the same day, in the exact same way and it arrived safe and alive. The only difference was that she used a larger box, the same box recommended on the website for adult leopard geckos in shipping kit #2. The same box I should have been told to use when I originally asked for advice on shipping.

Despite this negative experience I would still like to continue using your service. I believe that if I had been told to use the correct shipping supplies in the first place my animal would have arrived safely. In the future this experience can be avoided. I suggested to the responsible SYR representative that in the future she should recommend the correct shipping kit (#2) for adult leopard geckos. However, I would like a resolution regarding this matter as I now must replace the deceased animal for the recipient and pay for additional shipping. You may also contact me at the phone number provided below for further discussion.

Sincerely,
Emily Rose Patterson

 

[SpaceCadet]

That is not what I was told.

 

[Robyn@SYR]

Emily, I am the owner, and I am happy to have this conversation off the forum, you may contact me directly at [email protected]. I know Jayne@SYR has been in touch by email as well.

Again, we are very sorry about the loss of the gecko.

But from 20+ years of shipping live reptiles, including thousands of geckos, I am very confident that the heat pack use killed the animal. The high was in the 80's, and a heat pack was used. In a small box there is nowhere for that additional heat to go, it just builds and builds. The ambient temps are already on the hot side, the additional heat of the heat pack pushes it past the point of survival.

The are other circumstances that may have played a part, or could have affected live arrival, including lack of air holes in the box. But they are just additional details. The heat pack use in 82F temps is directly responsible for the DOA.

Yes, in a larger box there may have been enough heat dissipation for the gecko to survive, but we would never suggest using a heat pack with 82F temperatures in any size box. Shipping without a heat pack in 40F temps is absolutely survivable, although you believe otherwise. I would def recommend using a heat pack if 40F was the daytime high, but as I mentioned before, reptiles are much more tolerant of cold than they are of heat. Metabolism can deal with cold temps, it can't deal with hot temps (and no escape). (shipping in an uninsulated box in 40F temps would be a different story)

Your assumptions about temps and body damage are not correct, I'm sorry. The visual damage is absolutely consistent with an overheating and now decomposing animal.

Kathy@SYR has been upset about this all day. She has been trying to provide back and forth answers and help, I'm sorry if it was not clear, or even helpful. Believe me, she was very concerned about your gecko loss, and your experience.

It is HARD to lose an animal. It has happened to me personally, I know the pain very specifically. But this loss wasn't from SYR negligence or performance, or FedEx negligence. This is indeed a tricky time of year for shipping (Kathy was correct on that, and not trying to pander to you), because one day it might be warm, or hot, and two days later cold. We try and get folks to think very critically about temperatures and heat pack use when booking a shipment. There is a red letter notice in the SYR booking process specifically about heat pack use and regulating temps, pointing right to our temp guidelines, which say over 70F for a daytime high- no heat pack.

I will take a fresh and critical look at that language, and the Get Help section, and see if we can make the language even stronger. We WANT you to be successful, 100% of the time.

Jayne@SYR has reached out to you to try and alleviate the situation. I hope we can find some common ground here.

 

[SpaceCadet]

Emily, I am the owner, and I am happy to have this conversation off the forum, you may contact me directly at [email protected]. I know Jayne@SYR has been in touch by email as well.

Again, we are very sorry about the loss of the gecko.

But from 20+ years of shipping live reptiles, including thousands of geckos, I am very confident that the heat pack use killed the animal. The high was in the 80's, and a heat pack was used. In a small box there is nowhere for that additional heat to go, it just builds and builds. The ambient temps are already on the hot side, the additional heat of the heat pack pushes it past the point of survival.

The are other circumstances that may have played a part, or could have affected live arrival, including lack of air holes in the box. But they are just additional details. The heat pack use in 82F temps is directly responsible for the DOA.

Yes, in a larger box there may have been enough heat dissipation for the gecko to survive, but we would never suggest using a heat pack with 82F temperatures in any size box. Shipping without a heat pack in 40F temps is absolutely survivable, although you believe otherwise. I would def recommend using a heat pack if 40F was the daytime high, but as I mentioned before, reptiles are much more tolerant of cold than they are of heat. Metabolism can deal with cold temps, it can't deal with hot temps (and no escape). (shipping in an uninsulated box in 40F temps would be a different story)

Your assumptions about temps and body damage are not correct, I'm sorry. The visual damage is absolutely consistent with an overheating and now decomposing animal.

Kathy@SYR has been upset about this all day. She has been trying to provide back and forth answers and help, I'm sorry if it was not clear, or even helpful. Believe me, she was very concerned about your gecko loss, and your experience.

It is HARD to lose an animal. It has happened to me personally, I know the pain very specifically. But this loss wasn't from SYR negligence or performance, or FedEx negligence. This is indeed a tricky time of year for shipping (Kathy was correct on that, and not trying to pander to you), because one day it might be warm, or hot, and two days later cold. We try and get folks to think very critically about temperatures and heat pack use when booking a shipment. There is a red letter notice in the SYR booking process specifically about heat pack use and regulating temps, pointing right to our temp guidelines, which say over 70F for a daytime high- no heat pack.

I will take a fresh and critical look at that language, and the Get Help section, and see if we can make the language even stronger. We WANT you to be successful, 100% of the time.

Jayne@SYR has reached out to you to try and alleviate the situation. I hope we can find some common ground here.

hello and thank you for your response. I am on my way home and will be returning the call I got from Jayne ASAP. I very much appreciate the help and responses from all of you regarding the matter. It has really made a difference in the overall experience. I know no malicious intent was meant and there may have been misunderstandings during the back and forth emailing.

Once again aim thank you for the support of yourself and your staff. I will be calling shortly.

 

[SpaceCadet]

Last update to this thread:


I would like to conclude that this matter is being resolved in the best way possible. The outreach and professionalism from the employees of SYR has made a monumental difference. They really do empathize with reptile owners and care about their shipments and clients. At first I was very anxious, devastated and upset because I have dealt with lost shipments through other carriers (not living things, just stuff). Dealing with any other business regarding lost or damaged mail has always been a huge hassle with a lot of red tape and and end result of "oh well it's your fault". Having lost an animal I had an emotional attachment to made the scenario so much worse. SYR handled the situation in the most positive way they could. They did a lot they didn't have to do as a business to resolve the issue and make sure I was comfortable. What happened was a worst case scenario, but the outcome is more than I could have expected from them.

Nothing can be done to bring back the baby I lost, but myself and the recipient as first time shippers have learned a lot and are better prepared for next time. I will be using SYR again in the future and would recommend it to others.

 

[acpart]

I'm really glad things ultimately worked out (despite the loss of the gecko). It's a good lesson to all of us that in many cases if we talk things through, we can get a satisfactory result even from an upsetting situation.

Aliza

 

[Treefolk]

What's the point of using SYR? They don't insure when it matters. You can purchase all the materials you need elsewhere and ship through FedEx/ups. I mean people were shipping without SYR before they existed...

Seriously what's the point?

 

[scm133]

I have used SYR for only two years. I am sure there are others that have been with them longer. First off, you can't ship reptiles unless you are a certified reptile shipper. It is not feasible, due to my low volume to become certified. SYR has always been quick to answer any questions. Their insurance will cover a late DOA shipment, which is the carrier's mistake. No shipper including FedEx or UPS will cover just a DOA. They give great detail instructions on how to set up the packaging. Personally, I am glad that they are here for us.


GulfCoastGeckos

 

[SpaceCadet]

What's the point of using SYR? They don't insure when it matters. You can purchase all the materials you need elsewhere and ship through FedEx/ups. I mean people were shipping without SYR before they existed...

Seriously what's the point?

As Scm133 put it, it's better than nothing. I had a gecko shipment arrive a day late once through UPS and I panicked. I was on the phone all day trying to locate my package, UPS was not helpful at all and they really didn't care. I had to wait anxiously the next morning for my geckos to arrive. Thankfully they were safe and alive.

Though the box thing though....always use a bigger box...

 

[Kristi23]

I use SYR and they are awesome. Fed-Ex doesn't offer any type of live guarantee whether a package is late or on time. SYR is going above that with their insurance. It is your responsibility to know how to ship though.

I use 7x7x6 boxes all the time. But I never use a heat pack with temps like that. I generally don't use any type of heat/cold pack when temps are 60-80 degrees. A heat pack with temps in the 80's can easily kill an animal. It's better for a gecko to be colder than to be too hot, too.

I'm very sorry you lost your animal, but you cannot blame SYR. They are providing a service for us to use their account to ship to residences at a discounted rate. They are not responsible for the shipping part. That's all on the person setting up the account and packaging the animal. They are always extremely helpful with any questions I've ever had though.

ETA: Not sure why people keep saying the box size was an issue. Any time I order just one gecko from any breeder, it comes in a 7x7x6 box. That's with heat packs, cold packs, or nothing. That size is fine. A bigger box will cause the gecko to bounce around more.

 

[Robyn@SYR]

What's the point of using SYR? They don't insure when it matters. You can purchase all the materials you need elsewhere and ship through FedEx/ups. I mean people were shipping without SYR before they existed...

Seriously what's the point?

Unfortunately there are lots of unscrupulous folks in the reptile world. If you could insure a package to be covered for DOA regardless, it would end the program in a week, as folks would ship out dead animals and insure them for $1000 (or $10,000) and make a claim upon arrival for DOA. It sounds crazy, but there are wholesalers that used to (and still do?) include dead animals in bulk shipments and then give the customer the "oh well, that stinks for you" response to the "DOA".

When we developed the program, we had to ensure there would be little to no fraud. If FedEx delivers your package on time, as they are supposed to, the animal should be live and healthy, assuming you as the shipper have followed proper packaging and shipping parameters, including an insulated box and following our temperature guidelines. Once FedEx delays your package, even by a minute, the coverage kicks in. And that is also when the welfare of the animal becomes an issue. Deliver it on time, it should be fine. Delay it because of mechanical delays, weather, a misroute, mishandling, etc, and it is covered. Whether that delay is 5 minutes, or two days.

You can insure the live contents up to $10,000 on the site. If you want to insure a $100 leopard gecko for $5000, you can. It isn't tied to market value or what you paid, but rather what you have insured it for. But someone can't scam the system by doing that then claiming an on-time DOA, because they won't be able to affect the delivery time of the package (which goes by first delivery attempt, whether the recipient is home/available or not). Make sense?

 

[SpaceCadet]

I use SYR and they are awesome. Fed-Ex doesn't offer any type of live guarantee whether a package is late or on time. SYR is going above that with their insurance. It is your responsibility to know how to ship though.

I use 7x7x6 boxes all the time. But I never use a heat pack with temps like that. I generally don't use any type of heat/cold pack when temps are 60-80 degrees. A heat pack with temps in the 80's can easily kill an animal. It's better for a gecko to be colder than to be too hot, too.

I'm very sorry you lost your animal, but you cannot blame SYR. They are providing a service for us to use their account to ship to residences at a discounted rate. They are not responsible for the shipping part. That's all on the person setting up the account and packaging the animal. They are always extremely helpful with any questions I've ever had though.

ETA: Not sure why people keep saying the box size was an issue. Any time I order just one gecko from any breeder, it comes in a 7x7x6 box. That's with heat packs, cold packs, or nothing. That size is fine. A bigger box will cause the gecko to bounce around more.

I spoke with someone from SYR last week and they were very helpful. There was a delay in communication in the beginning that caused a lot of anxiety. There was some confusion, but it's been cleared up and explained.

I posted a summary of the experience earlier. They were very helpful and empathetic and I would recommend their service. I will be using them in the future and going by the appropriate guidelines.

 

[Kristi23]

Thank you for taking the time to come post here Robyn. I'm hoping this will be helpful for others who are thinking about trying SYR.