Enigma Genetics help

[Sandra]

You were speaking in terms of homozygous and heterozygous Enigmas and I was speaking in terms of a non-enigma "het" for the trait. You are straying from my meaning. I understand you, but you're not making an effort to understand me.

I understand perfectly. You mean that hets are normal looking animals that carry one copy of a mutation, and I'm telling you that your definition is wrong, that your definition only applies to recessive mutations, and that there are hets in codominant and dominant mutations too, they just don't look normal.

You never understood me because you didn't pay any attention to what I said and you repeatidly thought I was talking about normal looking animals that carried the enigma trait without showing it.

If as Paul said it has been done and it only yielded 50% Enigmas than that leads me to believe that there is no Super form of Enigma

I don't see how that proves anything. Enigma x Enigma should give you 75% enigmas and 25% normals and we all know that statistics tend to fail quite often unless we are talking about 100% or 0% percentages. The enigmas from that cross should be test bred to a normal see if any of them produces 100% enigma offspring. The first time it could be luck, but if it happens time after time then there's your proof. It's not difficult, it just takes some time.

Also, I wasn't the one to first say that enigmas were dominant, and also wasn't the one to first come up with the 'homozygous enigma' thing in this thread, so I don't know why I am discussing about this. I just wanted to answer Ryan his doubt about what meant people when they talked about homozygous and heterozygous enigmas.

 

[Baoh]

Sandra is completely correct about heterozygous Enigmas.

A visible Enigma is a heterozygous Enigma or, within reason, a homozygous Enigma. The latter, as far as I have seen, has yet to be proven by breeding experiments. That could be for several reasons. Whether or not a high enough number of Enigma x Enigma crosses and later their Enigma offspring x non-Enigma offspring, perhaps the possibility of a lethal or severely deleterious result that causes those eggs not to hatch, or whatever. It's so new to the community that this does not surprise me. It will just take another season or two by dedicated folks with large numbers of Enigma x Enigma pairings followed by crosses of the Enigma offspring with non-Enigmas in order to determine which is taking place (or perhaps a third option).

As she explained, it appears to behave in the manner of a dominant trait.

Being heterozygous does not necessarily have to do with a trait's visible expression or degree of it. That relationship only exists with recessives and incomplete dominance/co-dominance. The definition means there is only one copy of a given allele at a position out of the two homologous chromosomes. This does not have to do with visible expression, as it plays out differently for dominant versus co-dominant versus recessive traits.

 

[MSMD]

And yes that is what I was trying to say. I didn't think I expressed myself so badly

Sorry, Sandra. I wasn't meaning to imply you were expressing yourself badly. I understood what you meant, it just seemed that others didn't and I thought maybe another example would help clarify.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

ok well maybe it is safe to say that this would need to have more experimentation for further discussion, i didn't mean for it to go this far. i'm very sorry for my lack of understanding.

 

[bench]

Wow, one question got a couple more answers then i thought but that’s a good thing i learned some things and i think some other might have as well.

 

[Baoh]

Wow, one question got a couple more answers then i thought but that’s a good thing i learned some things and i think some other might have as well.

I am glad you learned from this and I certainly hope others have done so, too.

 

[2.1SRR.YYC]

Beth and Baoh,

You both have an excellent grasp of what's going on!

Het or Homo have nothing to do with the visual exhibition of a trait unless it's taken in context with the nature of the trait. Nature of the trait being dominant, co-dominant, recessive or wild type.

This discussion is about genetic inheritance as per the OP. It's not about your own personal interpretation of what het or homo mean. The definition of homozygous and heterozygous is well documented and not subject to interpretation. Any high school biology text book or wiki search will get you the proper definition.

Paul,
I was not aware that a homozygous enigma had not been discovered. You mean no one out there has produced 100% enigmas from an enigma x other pairing? I'm suprised! Either it will happen next year or there is a lethal aspect to the combination. I think a lethal trait has been proven in boa breeding so it wouldn't be totally uncommon. If anyone has produced 100% enigma from an enigma x other pairing please speak up...

As far as a Super form goes, I thought you could only have a super form with a co-dominant trait like mack snow or giant??

 

[paulnj]

"super form" is used loosely

I have heard theories on the genetics behind enigmas from many people, and believe very few of them after reading about..... variable pertinence traits

End of my replies on this subject.

 

[Baoh]

"super form" is used loosely

I have heard theories on the genetics behind enigmas from many people, and believe very few of them after reading about..... variable pertinence traits

End of my replies on this subject.

Do you have any information on another way to describe what you are trying to describe? There's no peer-reviewed mention of "variable pertinence traits". Zero.

 

[paulnj]

That's a generic term and any geneticist who is familiar with reptiles should be able to explain it. You won't find it via google.

Basicly is has to do with early development and cell migration causing the patterning of enigmas.

DONE

 

[Baoh]

That's a generic term and any geneticist who is familiar with reptiles should be able to explain it. You won't find it via google.

Basicly is has to do with early development and cell migration causing the patterning of enigmas.

DONE

I find it interesting that it has not one hit in medline. Perhaps you could suggest another body of literature that possesses this "generic term".

 

[paulnj]

no I can't, so forget I said it.

 

[Baoh]

Well, I cannot forget that you said it, but I'll remember it wasn't found in any of my genetic texts or medline, among other sources. Other terms, such as variable expression, which is what we might be seeing with things like eclipse eye fading, are readily found.

 

[paulnj]

Well , I only have the person who told me as reference and that person doesn't want to be known. They have bigger fish to fry than figuring out why enigmas have varied patterning and eye colors that are non typical, yet have BLACK pupils in non albinos

 

[Baoh]

Well , I only have the person who told me as reference and that person doesn't want to be known. They have bigger fish to fry than figuring out why enigmas have varied patterning and eye colors that are non typical, yet have BLACK pupils in non albinos

Sure.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK everyone... we can have heated debates here on GeckoForums.net as long as they stay civil and respectful! So, thank you for keeping it that way on this thread.

Het or Homo have nothing to do with the visual exhibition of a trait unless it's taken in context with the nature of the trait. Nature of the trait being dominant, co-dominant, recessive or wild type.

I agree with this 100%. I think where we get so much confusion is when we start thinking in terms of textbook genetics definitions, which simply does not apply all the time... especially with gecko morphology!

We all know that every offspring has one copy of each parent's genetic material. There are two parts to this definition: "Phenotype" which is the "outward, physical manifestation" of the organism. These are the physical parts, the sum of the atoms, molecules, macromolecules, cells, structures, metabolism, energy utilization, tissues, organs, reflexes and behaviors; anything that is part of the observable structure, function or behavior of a living organism.

"Genotype" which is the "internally coded, inheritable information" carried by all living organisms. This stored information is used as a "blueprint" or set of instructions for building and maintaining a living creature. These instructions are found within almost all cells (the "internal" part), they are written in a coded language (the genetic code), they are copied at the time of cell division or reproduction and are passed from one generation to the next ("inheritable"). These instructions are intimately involved with all aspects of the life of a cell or an organism. They control everything from the formation of protein macromolecules, to the regulation of metabolism and synthesis.

So what this means is, that if a gecko has an enigma parent (dominant gene) and let's say, a tangerine parent (line bred trait), we know that half of the offspring will be Enigmas (dominant) and the other 50% will be tangerines. Right? Well, technically speaking, all of the tangerine offspring will be heterozygous for Enigma... which simply means that the genetic copy of the Enigma parent's genes are in there somehwere, even if not expressed.

One the flip side, all of the Enigma offspring should therefore be 'heterozygous' tangerines because the other parent was a tangerine. Right? WRONG! How come? Well, in leopard geckos, only recessive traits actually work like that, because they are inheritable!

So by scientific textbook standards, an Enigma 'sibling' would be technically heterozygous Enigma, it is not heterozygous for Enigma. An Enigma sibling will never be able to express the Enigma gene in any of it's offspring because the Enigma gene is dominant. A gecko is either an Enigma or it is not an Enigma. An Enigma sibling is NOT an Enigma, so it cannot produce Enigmas because it is NOT inheritable!

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

I'm still totally super lost on this topic, oh well. it doesn't matter anymore. i just don't see that if something is written in the genetic code why it doesn't have the possibility of being passed along.

 

[thestack510]

Thank you MOGL. I couldn't express this in such elaborate terms, but that is precisely the point I was trying to make in my posts. No one to date has a complete understanding of the Enigma trait, that is a work in progress. We're all still learning when it comes to the Enigma.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

And Ken that is why i think that Enigmas are absolutely great animals but not for a first time breeder like myself. i do apologize for my stupidity when it comes to that trait but i'm a rookie and i think i over stepped my bounds. But on a good note i have finally picked out what i will be doing this up coming year and it's not quite the level that some of you guys have but i think that i will do just fine.

Again i'm sorry if i might have offended anyone i really didn't mean to. My logic and reasoning side of me got the better of me.

I hope everyone has a great start to there 09 breeding season i can't wait to see some Red Stripes/ Striped Snows/ Striped Bells, Rainwaters/ and some awesome Tangs. I'm looking forward into purchasing geckos from i know for a fact at least 4 different breeders just off of the forums.

Thank you all again for helping me attempt to understand i apologize for my stupidity again.

Thanks,,

Ryan

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Ryan, don't feel bad. Apparently you are not the only one that doesn't understand this completely... otherwise there wouldn't be a 'heated debate' over it! LOL!

i just don't see that if something is written in the genetic code why it doesn't have the possibility of being passed along.

The best way I know to answer this is to say that the gene that makes an Enigma doesn't get passed on with the rest of the genes to the non-Enigma offspring.