Enigma trait expression

[giantkeeper]

So that I do not hijack a beautiful moment from bro pauls post...I brought this here....People, please don't beat me for posting this

Awesome enigma hatchling! Im lost though, i thought Enigmas are suppost to be dominant? So shoulnt you get all enigmas from an enigma female?

First and foremost, let me say that genetics are never really cut and dry. All of these terms were used with flowers and stuff. There will be confusion as to how we apply these to geckos and snakes for years to come!

Dominant would produce all Enigma...but Incomplete dominance may describe it better.

"Dominant
In genetics, dominant trait refers to a genetic feature that hides the recessive trait in the phenotype of an individual. A dominant trait causes the phenotype that is seen in a heterozygous (Aa) genotype. Many traits are determined by pairs of complementary genes, each inherited from a single parent. Often when these are paired and compared, one gene (the dominant) will be found to effectively shut out the instructions from the other, recessive gene. For example, if a person has one gene for blue eyes and one for brown, that person will always have brown eyes because they are the dominant trait. For a person to have blue eyes, both their genes must be blue (recessive). When a person has two dominant alleles, they are referred to as homozygous dominant. If they have one dominant allele and one recessive allele, they are referred to as heterozygous."


This basically means ENIGMA trumps WILD TYPE every time.......ie All Enigmas



"Incomplete dominance
In incomplete dominance (sometimes called partial dominance), a heterozygous genotype creates an intermediate phenotype. In this case, only one allele (usually the wild type) at the single locus is expressed, creating an intermediate phenotype. A cross of two intermediate phenotypes (= monohybrid heterozygotes) will result in the reappearance of both parent phenotypes and the intermediate phenotype."


This basically means ENIGMA shares with WILD TYPE every time...ie Half Enigmas half normals


I am not real big on Wikipedia...but the gist is right.....


BTW, Incomplete dominance is better for the Enigma trait anyway...it means less will be produced :main_yes:


DISCLAIMER! I forgot to mention, I don't have an Enigma so I can only go by what I see and hear here. There is always the possibilty that the Enigma is Co-dominant, meaning that there is a dominant SUPER form....at this point that is only something that Kelli can answer.

 

[cjreptiles]

So that I do not hijack a beautiful moment from bro pauls post...I brought this here....People, please don't beat me for posting this



First and foremost, let me say that genetics are never really cut and dry. All of these terms were used with flowers and stuff. There will be confusion as to how we apply these to geckos and snakes for years to come!

Dominant would produce all Enigma...but Incomplete dominance may describe it better.

"Dominant
In genetics, dominant trait refers to a genetic feature that hides the recessive trait in the phenotype of an individual. A dominant trait causes the phenotype that is seen in a heterozygous (Aa) genotype. Many traits are determined by pairs of complementary genes, each inherited from a single parent. Often when these are paired and compared, one gene (the dominant) will be found to effectively shut out the instructions from the other, recessive gene. For example, if a person has one gene for blue eyes and one for brown, that person will always have brown eyes because they are the dominant trait. For a person to have blue eyes, both their genes must be blue (recessive). When a person has two dominant alleles, they are referred to as homozygous dominant. If they have one dominant allele and one recessive allele, they are referred to as heterozygous."


This basically means ENIGMA trumps WILD TYPE every time.......ie All Enigmas



"Incomplete dominance
In incomplete dominance (sometimes called partial dominance), a heterozygous genotype creates an intermediate phenotype. In this case, only one allele (usually the wild type) at the single locus is expressed, creating an intermediate phenotype. A cross of two intermediate phenotypes (= monohybrid heterozygotes) will result in the reappearance of both parent phenotypes and the intermediate phenotype."


This basically means ENIGMA shares with WILD TYPE every time...ie Half Enigmas half normals


I am not real big on Wikipedia...but the gist is right.....


BTW, Incomplete dominance is better for the Enigma trait anyway...it means less will be produced :main_yes:


DISCLAIMER! I forgot to mention, I don't have an Enigma so I can only go by what I see and hear here. There is always the possibilty that the Enigma is Co-dominant, meaning that there is a dominant SUPER form....at this point that is only something that Kelli can answer.

I don't think this is true. I think the enigma is a dominant trait, which means that it looks the same in the homozgyous (EE) and heterozygous (Ee) form. So, if you have a "het" enigma, it is still an enigma but by breeding it to non-enigmas, you will only get 50% enigma offspring (which will all be Ee as well). That's how I understand it at the moment.

 

[giantkeeper]

I don't think this is true. I think the enigma is a dominant trait, which means that it looks the same in the homozgyous (EE) and heterozygous (Ee) form. So, if you have a "het" enigma, it is still an enigma but by breeding it to non-enigmas, you will only get 50% enigma offspring (which will all be Ee as well). That's how I understand it at the moment.

I'm not sold yet....dominant would still describe all Enigmas from and Enigma to normal breeding

Incomplete would still best describe your theory....no?


With what you have described,

there is a dominant form Enigma and a visual het form (both appear the same)?

Duh....I've been to this conclusion before....Salmon Boas...doh

Disclaimer, I reserve the right to make a fool of myself on Saturday mornings before having coffee.

 

[Sandra]

I agree with cjreptiles... The enigma gene will cover the normal gene, but only in case that the hatchling is actually carrying the enigma gene!

I suppose that most enigmas sold are in fact het enigma, not pure enigmas, since you only need hets to see the enigma phenotype. There's no use in crossing an enigma with other enigma, unlike in recessive or incomplete dominant traits. The results of enigma crosses would be these:

Homozygous enigma x hom. enigma = 100% hom. enigma
Hom. enigma x het. enigma = 50% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma (100% enigma phenotype, impossible to distinguish hets from homozygous)
Het. enigma x het. enigma = 25% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma, 25% normals (75% enigmas)
Hom. enigma x normal = 100% het. enigma (100% enigmas)
Het. enigma x normal = 50% het. enigma, 50% normals (50% enigmas)

So, enigma x normal = not always enigmas, since most enigmas are hets.

 

[eyelids]

I really hope people don't pass off their Enigma sibs as "Normals"... :main_lipsrsealed:

 

[giantkeeper]

I agree with cjreptiles... The enigma gene will cover the normal gene, but only in case that the hatchling is actually carrying the enigma gene!

I suppose that most enigmas sold are in fact het enigma, not pure enigmas, since you only need hets to see the enigma phenotype. There's no use in crossing an enigma with other enigma, unlike in recessive or incomplete dominant traits. The results of enigma crosses would be these:

Homozygous enigma x hom. enigma = 100% hom. enigma
Hom. enigma x het. enigma = 50% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma (100% enigma phenotype, impossible to distinguish hets from homozygous)
Het. enigma x het. enigma = 25% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma, 25% normals (75% enigmas)
Hom. enigma x normal = 100% het. enigma (100% enigmas)
Het. enigma x normal = 50% het. enigma, 50% normals (50% enigmas)

So, enigma x normal = not always enigmas, since most enigmas are hets.

Now we are talkin'!


My limited genetics knowledge is laid out below. I always am open to being shown new ways and new ideas...


Dominant trait x wild type= 100% Dominant trait

Incomplete Dominant x anything wild type=1/2 Incomplete Dominant trait and 1/2 Wild Type

Incomplete Dominant x Incomplete Dominant=25% Dominant (visually indistinguishable from the "het" form), 50% het (visually different from the wild type, but not visually different from the "dominant" form), 25% normals (wild type)

Incomplete acts the same as co-dominant traits with the key exception being that A super form in co-dom is visually distinguishable from the "het" form....

 

[Gazz]

I agree with cjreptiles... The enigma gene will cover the normal gene, but only in case that the hatchling is actually carrying the enigma gene!

I suppose that most enigmas sold are in fact het enigma, not pure enigmas, since you only need hets to see the enigma phenotype. There's no use in crossing an enigma with other enigma, unlike in recessive or incomplete dominant traits. The results of enigma crosses would be these:

Homozygous enigma x hom. enigma = 100% hom. enigma
Hom. enigma x het. enigma = 50% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma (100% enigma phenotype, impossible to distinguish hets from homozygous)
Het. enigma x het. enigma = 25% hom. enigma, 50% het. enigma, 25% normals (75% enigmas)
Hom. enigma x normal = 100% het. enigma (100% enigmas)
Het. enigma x normal = 50% het. enigma, 50% normals (50% enigmas)

So, enigma x normal = not always enigmas, since most enigmas are hets.

Are you refering to red eyed enigma as enigmas and enigmas as het enigma ?? that the only way i can see all that jargen working all that pans out for the red eyed enigma but i think standed enigma is a clean 50/50 on the ofsping if that's the case the het enigma is a morph in it self so should be refered to as a het ??.

Is this 100% proven or theory what top dog has proven this info ? i've seen 3 enigma hatching from differant people they had what ever male with a enigma female and the result has been 2 eggs 1 enigma 1 normal offspring that to me is looking more like the dominant mack pastel way a pretty much nice and simple strate forward 50%-enigma 50%-normal as a rule i think in any animal i can think of dominant doesn't do HET it either it or is't.

 

[Sandra]

Is this 100% proven or theory what top dog has proven this info ? i've seen 3 enigma hatching from differant people they had what ever male with a enigma female and the result has been 2 eggs 1 enigma 1 normal offspring that to me is looking more like the dominant mack pastel way a pretty much nice and simple strate forward 50%-enigma 50%-normal as a rule i think in any animal i can think of dominant doesn't do HET it either it or is't.

If this morph is dominant, that's the way it will work. And yeah, dominant traits can make hets. If you think they don't, it's because you don't understand the meaning of heterozygous too well. Being heterozygous or homozygous dosn't have anything to do with a morph being dominant, co-dominant, recessive, or whatever.

Incomplete acts the same as co-dominate traits with the key exception being that A super form in co-dom is visually distinguishable from the "het" form....

ALL morphs work the same. The difference between the morph types (dominant, recessive, etc) is the phenotype of the offspring.

 

[yellermelon]

Screw were they come from and what they make...I JUST WANT ONE!

 

[Gazz]

If this morph is dominant, that's the way it will work. And yeah, dominant traits can make hets. If you think they don't, it's because you don't understand the meaning of heterozygous too well. Being heterozygous or homozygous dosn't have anything to do with a morph being dominant, co-dominant, recessive, or whatever.

I know you can get say a enigma het bell that a doninant that's het.But not a doninant that het for is self ?? it is or it is't.I've bred a couple dominant traits that are rep's and birds it always been state forward with a doninant.

RED X RED = RED

RED X BLACK = 50%RED/50% BLACK (NO HET)

I've never heard of a dominant being

RED HET RED X BLACK = 75% RED 25% BLACK.

 

[eyelids]

They are saying that in a dominant morph there still is a het form, but since it's dom they look the same. However, one will produce 100% of said morph when bred to one without said trait. That would be the homozygous form... The het form will produce 50% of said morph when bred to one without said trait.

 

[Gregg M]

Honestly, I do not think there is enough known about the genetics to be saying anything like what has been stated in the above posts...

The only one who would have any clue is Kelli, being that she has been working with this morph longer than anyone else besides Mark Bell....

The way it works with these guys seems to be dominant but it is not known if there is a super form or not so everything stated in this thread is pure speculation especially since most of the info is being told by people who are not working with the Enigmas or have not done any extensive work with the new morph...

Personally, I cant say anything either way because I have not bred any yet... All I can say is that they are sweet and I cant wait to find out how they tic...

As far as there being "hets" for a dominant gene, I do not think that is the case at all... True hets will not show the genetic mutaion... Also being that Enigmas are quite variable one can not say that the "het" form (if it does exist) will look like the "homo" form... The fact is, there has not been enough work done with these guys on a large enough scale to determine anything at this point...

With another season or two of breeding, answers will be more reliable and clear...

All I know is what my project plans are and that is what I am going to be working on almost exclusively...

 

[Sandra]

I'll try to make an extensive explanation of this so you can understand.

EVERY animal (not only those who suffer recessive mutations) has two different copies of every one of his/her genes, one coming from the mother and one coming from the father. Each copy is called "allele". The parents, of course, also have two copies of their genes. That gives us four possibilities in the hatchling: receiving the first copy from the mother and the first copy from the father, receiving the first copy from the mother and the second copy from the father, receiving the second copy from the mother and the first copy from the father, and receiven the second copy from the mother and the second copy from the father. That's why we divide the results in the offspring by quarters or 25% percentages.

Here I leave a pic so you can understand better. "Padre" means "father" in Spanish and "madre" means "mother". This pic is being used for an Spanish article so sorry for the text being in Spanish.

Having made that clear, let's talk about morphs. I'm using the color yellow for normal alleles, and color orange for mutant alleles (doesn't matter if the mutation is recessive, dominant, co-dominant... It's the same for all mutations).

There are three different possibilities, that the offspring will be normal homozygous (both alleles are normal), heterozygous (one allele is normal and the other is mutant) and mutant homozygous (both alleles are mutant).

Using the first pic I posted as a reference, these are all the possible outcomes from a cross.

I bet you knew all this, but only applied it to recessive morphs. Well, then I'll proceed to explain about how the different types of mutations behave.

Being of one type or another doesn't mean that there aren't heterozygotes. It only refers to how a mutant allele behaves towards a normal allele in the heterozygous. In leopard geckos exist (excluding the line-bred traits) three types of morphs:

Recessive: When the heterozygous has normal appearance because the normal allele rules over the mutant allele (albino, patternless, blizzard...)

Incomplete dominant: When the heterozygous is a blending of the normal phenotype (appearance) and the mutant phenotype (Mack snow, giant)

Dominant: When the heterozygous has mutant phenotype, because the mutant allele rules over the normal allele.

So, are there dominant heterozygotes? Yes. And does it matter, if the appearance is the same? Yes, because it changes the outcome of the breeding.

So: homozygous enigma x normal = 100% het enigmas (that have appearance of enigmas) but heterozygous enigma x normal = 50% het enigmas (apparently enigmas) and 50% homozygous normals.

Ah, and I'm saying all this taking into account that enigmas are supposed to be dominant. I've never worked with them so I can only rely on what the breeders that have worked with enigmas say. Even if it was incomplete dominant, the fact about how dominant morphs work wouldn't change.

Ps. Re-reading my last post I saw that I sounded a bit rude with you Gazz, and that wasn't my intention. English isn't my first language and sometimes it's difficult for me to say what I really mean to say without sounding weird. Sorry for that.

 

[Gazz]

I'll try to make an extensive explanation of this so you can understand.


Ps. Re-reading my last post I saw that I sounded a bit rude with you Gazz, and that wasn't my intention. English isn't my first language and sometimes it's difficult for me to say what I really mean to say without sounding weird. Sorry for that.

No worrys i don't affend easy anyway :main_thumbsup: Great load of info but is it 100% fact or purely theory ? what i said i'm going by what usually is as i haven't breed enigmas my self i can't say what i said is fact.But what credible breeder gave you this info for you to beleave this is the way the enigma gene works.kelliH very first enigma add on kingsnake.com it said that the enigmal was dominant aka enigma X norma = 50%enigma 50%normal quote pretty much breed a enigma to a normal het half enigmas & half normals but that was in the early stadges of the enigma at the minute this gene is a open book.

 

[cjreptiles]

I'm not sold yet....dominant would still describe all Enigmas from and Enigma to normal breeding

Incomplete would still best describe your theory....no?

No.

 

[cjreptiles]

No worrys i don't affend easy anyway :main_thumbsup: Great load of info but is it 100% fact or purely theory ? what i said i'm going by what usually is as i haven't breed enigmas my self i can't say what i said is fact.But what credible breeder gave you this info for you to beleave this is the way the enigma gene works.

Kelli said the enigma gene is dominant. If this is the case, the way Sandra said it works is right. Simple as that.

 

[eyelids]

Gregg you made a good point! All of this is speculation until proven. There will be some big surprises at some point this year and that is not speculation! :lipsrsealed2: :wink3: All in all, I hope the Enigmas have quite a few tricks left up their sleeve!

 

[Gregg M]

Even if it was incomplete dominant, the fact about how dominant morphs work wouldn't change.

Something else does not change... If the animal is visually expressing the genetic mutation, it is not a het... It is what it is...

Also, has it been proven that Enigma X Enigma = 100% Enigmas???

 

[Gazz]

Kelli said the enigma gene is dominant. If this is the case, the way Sandra said it works is right. Simple as that.

I don't see why ?? dominant hypo-aka-ghost is said to be as simple as ghost X normal = 50/50ish and ghost X ghost = 100% ghost.Mack pastel is said to be as simple as mack pastel X normal = 50/50ish and mack pastel X mack pastel = 100% mack pastel.Also i've read the gem snow's are also said to be gem snow X normal = 50/50%ish and gem snow X gem snow = 100% gem snow.So what is it that make you think there hidden allele's in enigmas that gives you all that other jargen ?? why wouldn't it be plain is or is't.

 

[cjreptiles]

Something else does not change... If the animal is visually expressing the genetic mutation, it is not a het... It is what it is...

Why do you believe this to be the case? All heterozygous means is that the geckos has two different alleles (i.e. one mutated 'enigma' allele and one normal allele) at a certain locus. A het. albino, for example, still looks the same as a normal leo, because the normal allele is dominant in this case. So the heterozygous animals in this case are phenotypically enigma because the enigma allele is dominant over the normal one (I suppose you could say these enigmas are "heterozygous for normal"!).