Gravid Female?

[shedevilx15]

My male and Female have been living in the same tank for exactly two weeks, and one day. I have kept a very close eye on their diet and behavior this whole time. The female loves superworms, and I feed her 2-4 a day, and there are always gut-loaded mealworms in a dish. Neither of them like to eat crickets, so I gave up on offering them. I have NEVER seen them attempt to mate, I was under the impression that my male was still too young (hes only 6 months old) and my female is packing on weight in the stomach area and eating like a horse. I just took this picture. I have done research on breeding, I have perlite, scale, incubator, etc. but I'm having a hard time figuring out if what I see in her tummy are developing eggs or not.

Picture from today:

 

[shedevilx15]

You cant really see it but there is a pink circular dot inside, according to one of the other threads, I think she is ovulating and not gravid. Correct me if I'm wrong though, I'll try to take some better pictures.

 

[SC Geckos]

I don't want to say one way or another because it is hard to tell from the picture looking at it from my phone. Most of the time you will see two ovulations (one in the upper left and one toward the middle of the belly. They will appear as yellowish circles surrounded in red. It also depending on how far along the ovulations are.
I will say that most of my females stop eating almost completely when they start ovulating and producing eggs. Though there are always exceptions.
Do you have them housed together in attempts to breed?? Are the male and female the same age (6 months)??
If so you may want to give them more time to mature before attempting to breed them. It can be done when they are pretty young but there are potential health risks especially for the female. I normally wait until both geckos are between 10 -12 months old (or older) and are at least 55-60 grams. This is just what has worked for me.

 

[shedevilx15]

The male is 6 months old, the female is more like 10 months old, she is bigger than him. I just weighed them both and the female is 55 grams, and my male is only 35 grams. The live together, they cuddle, they have never injured eachother since I put them in the same tank, and they really enjoy eachothers company. Both of them have actually calmed down a lot since being in together, they are less timid and eager come up to be fed out of tweezers. I've seen him get real excited and his tail shakes really fast (like a rattlke snake) and I read that this is normal behavior if he wants to mate, but I have never seen him try to mount her, they have never left any sort of bite marks on eachother. And they are almost always cuddling up next to eachother while they sleep.

And I forgot to add, they have a water dish, food dish, calcium/vitamin powder dish I see them eat out of, plus I sprinkle that powder on their mealworms. They have a moist hide, heat pad, and I have them on paper-towels. and neither of them is food aggressive or anything, and they both get plenty to eat, they actually eat out of the dish at the same time when I'm not hand-feeding them.

 

[SC Geckos]

The male is 6 months old, the female is more like 10 months old, she is bigger than him. I just weighed them both and the female is 55 grams, and my male is only 35 grams. The live together, they cuddle, they have never injured eachother since I put them in the same tank, and they really enjoy eachothers company. Both of them have actually calmed down a lot since being in together, they are less timid and eager come up to be fed out of tweezers. I've seen him get real excited and his tail shakes really fast (like a rattlke snake) and I read that this is normal behavior if he wants to mate, but I have never seen him try to mount her, they have never left any sort of bite marks on eachother. And they are almost always cuddling up next to eachother while they sleep.

I would not attempt to breed him at 35 grams. If he attempts to breed with her and she decides she is done before he is it can potentially cause a prolapse in the male (hemipene stuck out). They should be pretty close to the same size when breeding.
They should also be the same size (or very close to it) when housed together. The larger gecko can bully the smaller one. Also what many think is "cuddling" most of the time is one gecko showing dominance over the other. I am by no means saying this is whats going on with your geckos (there are always exceptions) but it could be. My advise would be to separate them until the male is older and about the same weight. Then when it comes time to pair them up only house them together for a short period of time during breeding season (a week or two). There are differing opinions on housing males and females together, this is just mine.

 

[katie_]

When reptiles lay on top of each other, its a sign of dominance NOT cuddling/affection.

 

[shedevilx15]

But it's not in a dominant way at all, they lay next to each other and rest their heads on each other, it's not one pushing another down or getting on-top of the other. I'll attach a picture when I get home to my computer.

 

[SC Geckos]

They don't show affection toward each other like.... say dogs or cats. Leopard geckos are pretty solitary animals. Most likely they are "cuddling" together because that is the best area/hide in the enclosure (probably on the warm side) and they both want to be in that spot. This is not because they like each others company. They would much rather be in that spot alone.

I think the biggest issue is that there is a 20 gram difference between the two geckos (that is a very big difference in size!). They should be housed separately. Some people house geckos in pairs but not a 35g gecko with a 55g gecko. The bigger one will ALWAYS dominate the smaller one weather it is noticed by the owner or not.

they are less timid and eager come up to be fed out of tweezers. I've seen him get real excited and his tail shakes really fast (like a rattlke snake) and I read that this is normal behavior if he wants to mate

The tail, up in the air shaking like a "rattle snake" is something that most young geckos do when they are feeding. When a male leopard gecko is mature and comes across another gecko he will rattle his tail. The difference is with this tail rattle is the tale is straight out on the ground (starts out slow then speeds up rapidly). This is to determine if the other gecko is a male or female. If the other gecko rattles back then it is two males and they will most likely fight. If the other gecko does not rattle back then it is either a female or an immature male.

 

[acpart]

I do think a 35 gram male is small to breed. There's also a good chance the female will produce infertile eggs because the male isn't sexually mature yet (I got a female once who had been bred to a young male before I got her and did not produce fertile eggs until I bred her to one of my mature males).

I find it difficult sometimes to tell the difference between developing eggs and fat deposits in the female, though it's more obvious when the eggs are almost ready to be laid. It's hard to tell with your female.

I honestly don't know if your geckos are piling up in a reasonable way or if it's one of the other reasons suggested by others. I find my fat tails are more likely to pile into one hide regardless of how many hides are available, but not the leos so much.

The prevailing wisdom is to house geckos of similar weights together. That said, I do have some small groups together where the male is over 100 grams and the females are closer to 60-70 grams. I haven't had any problems during the last 5+ years.

In conclusion, I'd say it's best to think seriously about what experienced keepers are recommending and to also use your judgement. The relative weights of each consideration are up to you.

Aliza

 

[shedevilx15]

He isn't a lot smaller than her, he's thinner than she is though, shes very thick (she eats like a horse), and hes still got weight to put on, but I totally understand the concern and will definitely separate them if I see them get aggravated with each-other. I have a 40 gallon tank that I was going to set up, with multiple heat pads, etc. but I have many 10 gallon tanks to separate them. This is a couple pictures of them together.

 

[katie_]

The last picture is prime example of how they dominate each other. Thats the bigger female on your smaller male right. You may notice your female is ALWAYS the one on top, because shes the dominate one. It will put undue stress on your male if shes doing this all the time.

Also, just so you know and been warned, if you only wait to seperate them when you seen them fighting, you could lose a gecko. Geckos who fight arent gentle and can do serious, serious damage.
Theyre your geckos, so its up to you, we`re just trying to give you some advice before they break your heart.


Off topic, do they have a humid hide in their tank, the female looks like shes missing a few toes

 

[shedevilx15]

She's not missing any toes, she just shed and has a tiny bit of it still stuck on her toes, but I've been spraying them with a spray-bottle and they have a large deli cup with a lid and a hole cut out stuffed with wet paper towels they lay in and I spray it down with water daily.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

She's not missing any toes, she just shed and has a tiny bit of it still stuck on her toes, but I've been spraying them with a spray-bottle and they have a large deli cup with a lid and a hole cut out stuffed with wet paper towels they lay in and I spray it down with water daily.

It's pretty obvious she's missing the tips of her toes. Also, never spray them directly. What are you supplementing with? They should be able to shed perfectly as long as their husbandry and supplementation is proper.

As was stated, they really need to be separated immediately. The reason he's thinner is because she's obviously dominant and is eating more of the food than he is. It's stressful, unhealthy, and potentially dangerous to be keeping them together.

~Maggot

 

[shedevilx15]

She was like that when I got her, could never figure out why Icarus's toes were so much longer than hers. I sprinkle vitamin d3 +calcium powder over all their worms and have a dish of it in their cage at all times, 2 dishes with mealworms in them at all times (on opposite sides of tank) and fresh spring water at all times. I've had him for longer than her and he's gaining weight he was thinner when I got him at the reptile expo, she eats more than him but he eats every day. He prefers mealies and she likes superworms. I also see him licking up the calcium/vitamin powder often but I've never seen her eat out of it, but because I sprinkle her worms she should be fine right?

 

[shedevilx15]

I couldnt figure out how to post from my phone but he rests his head on her too.
devinzbaby's Library | Photobucket

 

[Embrace Calamity]

She was like that when I got her, could never figure out why Icarus's toes were so much longer than hers. I sprinkle vitamin d3 +calcium powder over all their worms and have a dish of it in their cage at all times, 2 dishes with mealworms in them at all times (on opposite sides of tank) and fresh spring water at all times. I've had him for longer than her and he's gaining weight he was thinner when I got him at the reptile expo, she eats more than him but he eats every day. He prefers mealies and she likes superworms. I also see him licking up the calcium/vitamin powder often but I've never seen her eat out of it, but because I sprinkle her worms she should be fine right?

What brand are you using and what are the instructions? That sounds like more often than it should be used.

It's also said that D3 should never be left in the enclosure because too much is harmful. Only calcium without D3 should be in there.

Regarding this:

But it's not in a dominant way at all, they lay next to each other and rest their heads on each other, it's not one pushing another down or getting on-top of the other. I'll attach a picture when I get home to my computer.

How is that last picture not one on top of the other? Because it looks pretty obvious that one's on top of the other one. You're making the HUGE mistake of applying what you view as "dominance" in animals like cats or dogs to "dominance" in reptiles. Those are two very different social constructs, with two very different mechanisms for social interaction. A horse's dominance signs are very different from those of a dog, and those of reptiles are very different from horses or dogs.

~Maggot

 

[SC Geckos]

I sprinkle vitamin d3 +calcium powder over all their worms and have a dish of it in their cage at all times, 2 dishes with mealworms in them at all times (on opposite sides of tank) and fresh spring water at all times. I've had him for longer than her and he's gaining weight he was thinner when I got him at the reptile expo, she eats more than him but he eats every day. He prefers mealies and she likes superworms. I also see him licking up the calcium/vitamin powder often but I've never seen her eat out of it, but because I sprinkle her worms she should be fine right?

In addition to the D3+calcium powder I would suggest a vitamin supplement to mix with the calcium in the bowl.
If you insist on keeping them paired up just make sure there are multiple warm and cool side hides so they can get away from each other if needed.

It's also said that D3 should never be left in the enclosure because too much is harmful. Only calcium without D3 should be in there.

I have also heard many people say this but from all the info I can find myself, I have read that the amount of D3 in the supplements is a relatively small amount and a leopard gecko would have to eat the calcium powder w/D3 by the spoon full in order for it to cause a problem. I have never seen a confirmed case of a leopard gecko getting sick or dying from an overdose of D3. Im not saying it as never happened, just that I have never been able to find any information on one.
The Vionate (vitamin powder) and the Osteo Form SA (calcium supplement) I use both have D3. A mix of this powder is in there food bowls a at all times so every mealworm they eat has some of this powder. I have been using these products of about 4 years without a single issue (with a 20 - 30 animal collection). There are some other (much larger) breeders I know that have been using these same products (in the same way) for much longer with no reported problems.

 

[shedevilx15]

The stuff I've been using is ReptoCal by TetraFauna. It says "for all reptiles includes calcium and vitamin D3" It says to sprinkle on live foods 1-2 times per week, but the man at the reptile expo said to keep a small dish with a little bit in it in the cage at all times.

My parents are actually bringing my 40 gallon breeder style tank from their house, and these two will have a huge tank all to themselves. I work at a petstore, and will bring home some new hides, moss, and maybe the reptile carpet since papertowels look kind of crappy. I was also going to use that Coconut Husk substrate in the "moist hide" in replace of wet papertowels. I also have 2 heating pads (the under the tank ones) Thats my game-plan for this weekend.

 

[katie_]

May I ask why you want to keep them together so bad? Im curious, since you work at a prtstore and have all the supplies available to you.

 

[shedevilx15]

May I ask why you want to keep them together so bad? Im curious, since you work at a prtstore and have all the supplies available to you.

I really want to get to the point where I can have 2-3 females in with Icarus. A lot of people I talk to have several females in with one male, and everyone gets along great. I would always be able to separate them, and would never keep any together that didn't get along.

I just personally like the idea of one big cage with 3-4 all living together, than a rack with all of them separated.