Having health issues,housing question

[ptbmaniac]

A couple weeks ago I lost a Leo during the night due to a bad shed that suffocated her because her nose and mouth were blocked.Now another Leo has ulcers in BOTH eyes. The vet said she believed that both eyes got scratched either by a cricket,or during shedding by the wood hide or her nails. She also said that Leos are known for eye problems and also because of specific genetics through breeding some are at a higher risk which I have read in numerous articles. However that is NOT the case in this instance. She put dye in both eyes to determine the damage.The outlook is not looking good for her as far as her sight goes.She is eating and is healthy in every other way.I got ran out of another site for posting this,so I wanted to try and get some responses here. Do you think that there is anything wrong with these setups? Both tanks are exactly the same.

Setups are a 20 long with cage carpet as substrate. Uth for heat. Wood and resin hides,and a tupperware humid hide on the hot side. Moss is used in the humid hide. Flat stones used in the corners to hold carpet in place. Shallow water bowl,small calcium bowl,and small food bowl.Hot side is between 90-92 degrees.Cool side between 75-78. They are fed mealworms and crickets as staple foods. Crickets are gutloaded properly and dusted before feeding. Mealworms are checked and are alive for feeding.

I would like to change over to slate in the future.I cant right now,because the vet bill for this gecko has been high. Also both Geckos were purchased at a reptile expo about 2 years ago. I only buy through breeders.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

What are you supplementing with exactly?

~Maggot

 

[ptbmaniac]

I am using Rep-Cal Calcium powder with no D3 and Rep-Cal Herptivite. I was told I should use Rep-Cal with D3 every once in a while also. I havent gotten that yet. I always read that Leos didnt need D3.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I am using Rep-Cal Calcium powder with no D3 and Rep-Cal Herptivite. I was told I should use Rep-Cal with D3 every once in a while also. I havent gotten that yet. I always read that Leos didnt need D3.

Leos very seriously need D3. It's what allows their bodies to utilize the calcium you give them.

Another big issue is the lack of vitamin A. The Herptivite contains beta carotene, which leopard geckos can't use (Vitamin A deficiency in Insectivorous Geckos | Gecko Time). Did your vet check for a vitamin A deficiency? Because that will cause shedding problems, eye problems, and ulcers (search through some threads on here and you'll find examples of all of these). While a 100% accurate diagnosis can't ever be made via the internet, I'd put $50 down on a severe vitamin A deficiency being the source of your problems. You need to get a supplement that contains vitamin A acetate/retinol.

~Maggot

 

[ptbmaniac]

Thank you! I only bought what the breeder told me to and what my book said. I will get find something tomorrow! The vet did all kinds of stuff. It is costing a fortune.She never mentioned vitamin A. She is a exotics/reptiles vet so I trust her,but thanks for the info. You are the first person to give me anything solid!

 

[Embrace Calamity]

It's a little sketchy that she didn't bother to look into the supplementation. I took my crocodile gecko to the vet for some other issues, and the vet asked very in-depth questions about supplementation (as well as temps, humidity, housing, feeding schedule, fecals, history, etc., etc., etc.) And, given the symptoms, vitamin A seems like a logical thing to discuss. =/

But anyway, hopefully that can resolve the issues (if I'm right, which I hope I am, but I do not guarantee it because I am by no means a vet or an expert). Just make sure you get the right supplement. An update sometime after you've got the supplementation figured out would be nice as well.

~Maggot

 

[ptbmaniac]

Could you tell me a good thing to use? Everthing I see says to use beta carotene because that is what they use to turn into vitamin A. Nothing I can find says vitamin A.It all says beta carotene.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

This contains vitamin A: T-Rex Leopard Gecko Calcium Plus Supplement Reptile Food Supplements
This does as well: Repashy Calcium Plus 3oz Jar
(NOTE: Both of those products are intended to use every feeding and require no additional supplementation. Would still be a good idea to leave the pure calcium in the enclosure, but no need to do anything else. One of those is what is generally suggested to use, but some people prefer to use other brands.)

This one does too: ReptiVite? with D3
(As far as I'm aware, the above is also intended to cover all nutritional needs. I tried to link you to Pet Co's website where they sell it, but the stupid filter of the word wouldn't allow me to post the link, so you'll have to find it yourself.)

~Maggot

 

[OrangeTangeriene]

My leo has been shedding badly for ages. This time it hasn't shed on its nose. Should I take it to the vet?:main_robin:

 

[Embrace Calamity]

My leo has been shedding badly for ages. This time it hasn't shed on its nose. Should I take it to the vet?:main_robin:

Post a new thread here: Health and Medications And fill this out: http://geckoforums.net/f130-health-medications/70912.htm

~Maggot

 

[DrCarrotTail]

A lot of breeders also use Vionate - a vitamin supplement made for all animals, not just reptiles. Personally I use Herptivite as you said you were and have had no issues so far.

I would agree that the issues you are having are symptoms of a vitamin A deficiency and that very well may be what's going on, but that does not mean it is a vitamin deficiency for sure. Suffocating from a bad shed with no prior symptoms (if I'm reading that right) seems awfully severe. It leads me to wonder if there are other underlying issues, such as parasites, or possibly if something in your tank or in your house could be harming your geckos, etc.

You said you use resin and wood hides? Where did they come from? Are they waterproof? How long has it been since you bought new repticarpet? They could be harboring chemicals, bacteria or mold if they're old or have been cleaned with harsh chemicals or made with toxic materials. Not saying this is the case, just trying to help with ideas. If it were my gecko and the carpet or wood was old and I had an iota of a doubt that it could be the cause, I would switch to paper towels and use some granola bar boxes as hides until I could afford to buy some new stuff.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Doc, out of curiosity, what do you use to gutload your feeders?

~Maggot

 

[DrCarrotTail]

My mealworms live on Rice Krispies, wheat bran and oatmeal. They get kale, oranges, apples, cabbage, blueberries, melon, spinach, potatoes and whatever other veggie scraps I have leftover from my own cooking.

The roaches get roach chow that I buy at a local reptile show from a dubia breeder (he told me what was in it once and it sounded good - fish food, poultry food and other stuff) and a portion of the fruit and veggie scraps that my mealworms get. I also give them a bit of baby food from time to time as they seem to really like it but I don't have enough roaches to go through a whole jar before it molds - someday soon hopefully!

 

[ptbmaniac]

Thanks for the suggestions. I am headed out to +++++ now. Petland only had products with beta carotene in it.
The cage carpet gets replaced after just a few cleanings. Both hides were bought at the expo.The resin hide is a log hide and is waterproof. Its for reptiles/fish. Thanks for all the info and suggestion.

 

[ptbmaniac]

I guess I cant put certain petstore names.

 

[ptbmaniac]

I ended up getting the Zoo Med Reptivite. That is the only one I could find locally,but it has everything in it so it should work. I will also ask the vet about the Vitamin deficiency when I go back in a few days,since she didnt mention it.

 

[acpart]

The vitamin A issue is kind of an interesting one and to be honest I'm not sure how universally accepted it is. I actually solicited that Gecko Time article about the vitamin A problem. Interestingly, my reptile vet feels very strongly that geckos have eye problems and blindness because they are kept at an ambient (not floor) temperature that's too high and their eyes dehydrate and get stuck to the lids. I've been hoping that my vet will email this other vet and discuss it with him (and of course I'm hoping to get an article out of it for Gecko Time) and although he says he's interested, he's just too busy to do it. So I want to stress, that while the vitamin A issue may be true, so far, to the best of my knowledge, it is one vet's opinion. I checked the ingredients on my Repashy calcium plus and it says both "vitamin A supplements" and "beta carotene".

Another thing to check is whether the gecko could possibly be scratching herself on the moss in the hide.

Aliza

 

[Embrace Calamity]

The vitamin A issue is kind of an interesting one and to be honest I'm not sure how universally accepted it is. I actually solicited that Gecko Time article about the vitamin A problem. Interestingly, my reptile vet feels very strongly that geckos have eye problems and blindness because they are kept at an ambient (not floor) temperature that's too high and their eyes dehydrate and get stuck to the lids. I've been hoping that my vet will email this other vet and discuss it with him (and of course I'm hoping to get an article out of it for Gecko Time) and although he says he's interested, he's just too busy to do it. So I want to stress, that while the vitamin A issue may be true, so far, to the best of my knowledge, it is one vet's opinion. I checked the ingredients on my Repashy calcium plus and it says both "vitamin A supplements" and "beta carotene".

Another thing to check is whether the gecko could possibly be scratching herself on the moss in the hide.

Aliza

That doesn't make much sense to me. Wild leos don't have UTHs; they have ambient temps, and they go out to find heated rocks from the sun. They are crepuscular, so they do encounter warm temperatures. Furthermore, they are camouflaged for grasses, and for this to evolve, it would have to be a consistently beneficial adaptation - meaning they would have to spend enough time out in the grasses.

That could possibly be an issue with super high temps, but 90 really isn't that hot. I've yet to hear of a gecko that was getting vitamin A that had eye problems, regardless of the temperatures. And if the temps that they are generally kept at (around 90) were the cause of the issues, this would be a much more prevalent problem than it appears to be.

Not saying your vet is necessarily wrong, but that all just seems evolutionarily and otherwise counterintuitive.

My mealworms live on Rice Krispies, wheat bran and oatmeal. They get kale, oranges, apples, cabbage, blueberries, melon, spinach, potatoes and whatever other veggie scraps I have leftover from my own cooking.

The roaches get roach chow that I buy at a local reptile show from a dubia breeder (he told me what was in it once and it sounded good - fish food, poultry food and other stuff) and a portion of the fruit and veggie scraps that my mealworms get. I also give them a bit of baby food from time to time as they seem to really like it but I don't have enough roaches to go through a whole jar before it molds - someday soon hopefully!

So they'd probably be getting some form of vitamin A, right? As I recall, someone on here hadn't been using anything with vitamin A, but their feeders were being gutloaded with foods that contained vitamin A. Once they stopped feeding those foods, however, deficiency symptoms started to appear in their geckos. I was wondering if maybe the same thing is occurring with you.

~Maggot

 

[DrCarrotTail]

What Aliza said makes a whole lot of sense to me. It's not that 90 degrees is all that hot for a while but i could see how long term ambient air temps above 90 with a heat source that is 8 inches over the gecko's head that dries out the air quite a bit could cause issues. The gecko time article is not scripture - as well thought out and well written as it is, as Aliza (who solicited and published the article) said its one vet's opinion and she's spoken to other vets with differing opinions. IMO there's no proof that insectivores cannot process beta carotene. I will concede that they are probably less efficient at doing so than herbivores - based on research i found looking at carnivores vs. herbivores - but that's a lot different than being unable to process it at all. I do try to give my feeders and geckos as much variety in their diet as I can so that whatever deficiencies exist in the artificial supplementation we give them can be minimized. IMO nothing artificial is perfect and there are deficiencies in every supplement. There is a lot of grey in keeping exotic species and we just have to use common sense, good judgement, and do the best we can

 

[Embrace Calamity]

What Aliza said makes a whole lot of sense to me. It's not that 90 degrees is all that hot for a while but i could see how long term ambient air temps above 90 with a heat source that is 8 inches over the gecko's head that dries out the air quite a bit could cause issues.

I'm not sure I've ever heard of someone with a setup that has an overhead heat source that's only 8" from the gecko or anyone who keeps air temps much above 90 for any extended period of time (these two things seem very out of place with the care that is supposed to be provided). Again, I've never heard of any gecko with their nutritional needs being met having eye problems. Have you or anyone else here? If high, dry air temps are the cause of eye problems, then, again, this would be something we'd certainly be seeing pretty commonly without any other explanation.

~Maggot