Heating issues (long)

[acpart]

I have been thinking about the general issue of differences in husbandry and how people are sure a certain practice is the only way to do it while someone else is equally sure that a different practice is the best way. I wanted to focus a discussion on one of these areas --floor temperature and ambient temperature. I'm not really interested in a "who's right" discussion; I'm more interested in figuring out if there are numerous "correct" methods and to what extent those methods are backed up by studies, personal experience and experimentation. I thought I'd lay out an outline of what the issues are, the reasons for our choices and how we do (or should) go about making those choices.

A. The issues:
--What is the ideal floor temperature range?
I've seen suggestions ranging from 88F to 98F. Some people think the high 90's is too hot and others think the high 80's is too cold

--Which ways should geckos get their heat?
Most keepers go with UTH's but some use heat lamps to mimic the sun. UTH's keep a constant heat day and night so the gecko can optimally digest at any time but heat from above held in rocks, dirt and sand by the sun is more in keeping with natural habitat

--what are the reasonable choices for ambient heat?
Some people say that as long as there is belly heat the ambient heat doesn't really matter (as long as it's within the range of human comfort, say, low 60's and up); some people feel that ambient temperature should be in the mid 80's

B. On what do we base our choices?
This is really important to me because it's very easy to come across as authoritative on the internet without necessarily having a great range of things to back someone up, so I thought I'd provide a list of reasons that people may have for making their choices:
--it works for me (and it's the only thing I've tried)
--I've tried it several ways and this has worked the best
--so-and-so who is an expert has told me to do it this way
--there are studies that I've read that recommend doing it this way after experimentation
--I have done a controlled experiment and decided to do it this way
--this works and is the most reasonable way for me to do it given my life circumstances
--I am providing a reasonable recreation of their natural habitat
--other?

I'll go first. I keep my geckos with UTH belly heat in the low to mid 90's and the ambient temp as it is in my house, which means as low as low 60's during the day in the winter and in the high 80's to maybe even 90 in the summer. I do this for 3 reasons:
-it works for me: my geckos, who don't eat much in the winter, but eat like crazy during breeding season, are mostly in the 90-100 gram range, produce well and look good
-it's within the range of what's possible: I can't keep a room in my house in the 80's in the winter and I don't have air conditioning; I don't have the space to use lights over each tank
-it's within the range of what many people suggest and what works for them as well

I'd really like to come away from this discussion with a feeling that there are many options within a range, or else, with scientific evidence that one option makes more sense than another.
Go to it (respectfully).

Aliza

 

[Angel]

i have a few tanks but use uth on all of them, my temps stayhigh 80's to mid 90's on the floor temp. i do use a heat lamp off and on during the day {im my large exo terra tank since there are numerous levels and the uth is only on the bottom} as well as a uva light mostly for visibilty reasons on all tanks but the uva isnt on more than 4 hours a day, I do the same for my ambient temps as you it is the same as the room its in so fluxuates during different seasons. I was told the temp fluxuations are normal in the wild they go through seasons just the same so figured it
{A}wont hurt them this saving me time and money from having to buy more lights and heat sources.
{B} This is working for me my geckos are thriving and growing well even my thin little rescue storm.

 

[T-ReXx]

All of my leopard geckos are kept in rack systems. It's heated via belly heat(3" and 4" flexwatt) and controlled by Johnson's and herpstat thermostats. When I first started keeping leos(over 10 years ago) I used tanks with UTHs and some with heat lamps. My first breeders bred in tanks with UTHs kept in the 88-90F range. For the past 7 or so years I've raised temps in the hot spots to 94-97F and I have noticed a marked difference in the animals. Overall they eat better, hatchlings grow faster, and breeders recover much faster from weight loss do to egg production. I also definately see more nightly activity in animals kept at this higher temperature range. I've never done anything to ambient temps beyond general room temperature, my reptile room goes as low as 62F in the winter at night to upper 80s day time temps during the summer and other than being VERY careful about monitoring of thermostats, I've never bothered to heat the room beyond the temps of the rest of the house. I keep/have kept several species that prefer cooler temps(Rhacs, Uroplatus. cave geckos) so heating the room to a higher than average room temp would actually be detrimental to some of my animals. The main reason I feel that belly heat is better than something like a basking light is that this is the way that leopard(and other nocturnal geckos) get their heat in the wild. These animals spend time warming up on warm rocks/ground that was warmed by the sun before becoming active for the night. This is a behavior I see mimicked by captive leos. My leos will spend their days sleeping at the cool end of the cage, often within the humid hide(similar to wild geckos sleeping the day away underground in cool, damp burrows) then, as dusk falls, they move to the drier hide over the heated end of the cage and spend time lying there, warming up. Afterwards they begin their nightly activities; feeding, drinking, patrolling territory, etc. I feel that higher hot spot temperature range(92F+) is beneficial for their general health, increases activity, and makes better breeders. However, I feel, as with all reptiles, choice is the way to do this. They need to have the ability to choose their comfort level, in my tubs the cool end is always below 74F, oftentimes cooler with a gradual increase in temp the closer you get to the heat source. In a heated reptile room, where daily room temp is constantly 82F+, I don't think higher basking temps are all that necessary, or even advisable. If I was to go to heating the entire room to a higher ambient temp(moving my cool-air prefering species elsewhere) I would most likely drop hot spot temps back down into the 90-92F range, perhaps even lower, depending on the animals' behavior. I think a big key of finding the right temps is to watch the animals and note their reactions. IMO, animals that are eating more, growing faster, maintaining color better, producing more young, and maintaining better weight are in no doubt happier.

Note: This is all just based on my experience keeping leopard geckos. I've kept a variety of species over the years and could probably wax poetic about my personal opinions of optimal temps for all of them, but as far as leos go, this method has yet to fail me. I've done some minor tweaks to my system over the years, but other than the one change in temp, I have yet to change that aspect anymore. I believe this is my optimal range, personally.

 

[Latlaw]

I have been thinking about the general issue of differences in husbandry and how people are sure a certain practice is the only way to do it while someone else is equally sure that a different practice is the best way. I wanted to focus a discussion on one of these areas --floor temperature and ambient temperature. I'm not really interested in a "who's right" discussion; I'm more interested in figuring out if there are numerous "correct" methods and to what extent those methods are backed up by studies, personal experience and experimentation. I thought I'd lay out an outline of what the issues are, the reasons for our choices and how we do (or should) go about making those choices.

A. The issues:
--What is the ideal floor temperature range?
I've seen suggestions ranging from 88F to 98F. Some people think the high 90's is too hot and others think the high 80's is too cold

--Which ways should geckos get their heat?
Most keepers go with UTH's but some use heat lamps to mimic the sun. UTH's keep a constant heat day and night so the gecko can optimally digest at any time but heat from above held in rocks, dirt and sand by the sun is more in keeping with natural habitat

--what are the reasonable choices for ambient heat?
Some people say that as long as there is belly heat the ambient heat doesn't really matter (as long as it's within the range of human comfort, say, low 60's and up); some people feel that ambient temperature should be in the mid 80's

B. On what do we base our choices?
This is really important to me because it's very easy to come across as authoritative on the internet without necessarily having a great range of things to back someone up, so I thought I'd provide a list of reasons that people may have for making their choices:
--it works for me (and it's the only thing I've tried)
--I've tried it several ways and this has worked the best
--so-and-so who is an expert has told me to do it this way
--there are studies that I've read that recommend doing it this way after experimentation
--I have done a controlled experiment and decided to do it this way
--this works and is the most reasonable way for me to do it given my life circumstances
--I am providing a reasonable recreation of their natural habitat
--other?

I'll go first. I keep my geckos with UTH belly heat in the low to mid 90's and the ambient temp as it is in my house, which means as low as low 60's during the day in the winter and in the high 80's to maybe even 90 in the summer. I do this for 3 reasons:
-it works for me: my geckos, who don't eat much in the winter, but eat like crazy during breeding season, are mostly in the 90-100 gram range, produce well and look good
-it's within the range of what's possible: I can't keep a room in my house in the 80's in the winter and I don't have air conditioning; I don't have the space to use lights over each tank
-it's within the range of what many people suggest and what works for them as well

I'd really like to come away from this discussion with a feeling that there are many options within a range, or else, with scientific evidence that one option makes more sense than another.
Go to it (respectfully).

Aliza

Thank you for this post Aliza. I really hope to hear the views of the experienced breeders on this forum. Very interesting topic!

 

[Latlaw]

All of my leopard geckos are kept in rack systems. It's heated via belly heat(3" and 4" flexwatt) and controlled by Johnson's and herpstat thermostats. When I first started keeping leos(over 10 years ago) I used tanks with UTHs and some with heat lamps. My first breeders bred in tanks with UTHs kept in the 88-90F range. For the past 7 or so years I've raised temps in the hot spots to 94-97F and I have noticed a marked difference in the animals. Overall they eat better, hatchlings grow faster, and breeders recover much faster from weight loss do to egg production. I also definately see more nightly activity in animals kept at this higher temperature range. I've never done anything to ambient temps beyond general room temperature, my reptile room goes as low as 62F in the winter at night to upper 80s day time temps during the summer and other than being VERY careful about monitoring of thermostats, I've never bothered to heat the room beyond the temps of the rest of the house. I keep/have kept several species that prefer cooler temps(Rhacs, Uroplatus. cave geckos) so heating the room to a higher than average room temp would actually be detrimental to some of my animals. The main reason I feel that belly heat is better than something like a basking light is that this is the way that leopard(and other nocturnal geckos) get their heat in the wild. These animals spend time warming up on warm rocks/ground that was warmed by the sun before becoming active for the night. This is a behavior I see mimicked by captive leos. My leos will spend their days sleeping at the cool end of the cage, often within the humid hide(similar to wild geckos sleeping the day away underground in cool, damp burrows) then, as dusk falls, they move to the drier hide over the heated end of the cage and spend time lying there, warming up. Afterwards they begin their nightly activities; feeding, drinking, patrolling territory, etc. I feel that higher hot spot temperature range(92F+) is beneficial for their general health, increases activity, and makes better breeders. However, I feel, as with all reptiles, choice is the way to do this. They need to have the ability to choose their comfort level, in my tubs the cool end is always below 74F, oftentimes cooler with a gradual increase in temp the closer you get to the heat source. In a heated reptile room, where daily room temp is constantly 82F+, I don't think higher basking temps are all that necessary, or even advisable. If I was to go to heating the entire room to a higher ambient temp(moving my cool-air prefering species elsewhere) I would most likely drop hot spot temps back down into the 90-92F range, perhaps even lower, depending on the animals' behavior. I think a big key of finding the right temps is to watch the animals and note their reactions. IMO, animals that are eating more, growing faster, maintaining color better, producing more young, and maintaining better weight are in no doubt happier.

Note: This is all just based on my experience keeping leopard geckos. I've kept a variety of species over the years and could probably wax poetic about my personal opinions of optimal temps for all of them, but as far as leos go, this method has yet to fail me. I've done some minor tweaks to my system over the years, but other than the one change in temp, I have yet to change that aspect anymore. I believe this is my optimal range, personally.

Well put and makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you.

 

[gothra]

I keep my leos in open top glass tanks with UTH as heating element. It is set to 92F during summer where room temperature stays mid 80s throughout day and night; and set to 93 in winter. A few years ago, I don't temper with the room temperature, so during winter, the ambient temps will drop to the 60s (**note this is important because I have open top glass tanks). All of my leos will slow down / stop eating during the cold months, and will lose 10-15% body weight. Most will resume eating in Feburary, and will gain back their weight very quickly.

Now, I bought a radiant heater for the gecko room; the winter room temps stay 74-75F (vs mid 60s in the past). Most of my geckos are still eating, a couple have slowed down a bit, but not to the extent like before. So I do believe the ambient temperature plays a big role here.

 

[OneFootedAce]

All of my leopard geckos are kept in rack systems. It's heated via belly heat(3" and 4" flexwatt) and controlled by Johnson's and herpstat thermostats. When I first started keeping leos(over 10 years ago) I used tanks with UTHs and some with heat lamps. My first breeders bred in tanks with UTHs kept in the 88-90F range. For the past 7 or so years I've raised temps in the hot spots to 94-97F and I have noticed a marked difference in the animals. Overall they eat better, hatchlings grow faster, and breeders recover much faster from weight loss do to egg production. I also definately see more nightly activity in animals kept at this higher temperature range. I've never done anything to ambient temps beyond general room temperature, my reptile room goes as low as 62F in the winter at night to upper 80s day time temps during the summer and other than being VERY careful about monitoring of thermostats, I've never bothered to heat the room beyond the temps of the rest of the house. I keep/have kept several species that prefer cooler temps(Rhacs, Uroplatus. cave geckos) so heating the room to a higher than average room temp would actually be detrimental to some of my animals. The main reason I feel that belly heat is better than something like a basking light is that this is the way that leopard(and other nocturnal geckos) get their heat in the wild. These animals spend time warming up on warm rocks/ground that was warmed by the sun before becoming active for the night. This is a behavior I see mimicked by captive leos. My leos will spend their days sleeping at the cool end of the cage, often within the humid hide(similar to wild geckos sleeping the day away underground in cool, damp burrows) then, as dusk falls, they move to the drier hide over the heated end of the cage and spend time lying there, warming up. Afterwards they begin their nightly activities; feeding, drinking, patrolling territory, etc. I feel that higher hot spot temperature range(92F+) is beneficial for their general health, increases activity, and makes better breeders. However, I feel, as with all reptiles, choice is the way to do this. They need to have the ability to choose their comfort level, in my tubs the cool end is always below 74F, oftentimes cooler with a gradual increase in temp the closer you get to the heat source. In a heated reptile room, where daily room temp is constantly 82F+, I don't think higher basking temps are all that necessary, or even advisable. If I was to go to heating the entire room to a higher ambient temp(moving my cool-air prefering species elsewhere) I would most likely drop hot spot temps back down into the 90-92F range, perhaps even lower, depending on the animals' behavior. I think a big key of finding the right temps is to watch the animals and note their reactions. IMO, animals that are eating more, growing faster, maintaining color better, producing more young, and maintaining better weight are in no doubt happier.

Note: This is all just based on my experience keeping leopard geckos. I've kept a variety of species over the years and could probably wax poetic about my personal opinions of optimal temps for all of them, but as far as leos go, this method has yet to fail me. I've done some minor tweaks to my system over the years, but other than the one change in temp, I have yet to change that aspect anymore. I believe this is my optimal range, personally.

Bingo. Pretty much same thing as me, except I keep my breeders in tanks and im gunna keep the hatchlings in tubs. Hot side is mid nineties, cool side is whatever it is (Usually around 70-78F). Its worked for me and my geckos seem to be happy and healthy so why change it.

 

[Latlaw]

bump for more responses . . please .. .

 

[Designer Geckos]

I think Adam and Ted hit it on the head. Good advice guys! I agree with your methods.

 

[RoninSTi]

I'm basically just posting to subscribe to the thread and see further responses, but I'll share my limited experience anyways. I spent hours on this forum and a few others before obtaining my gecko. I also interviewed the local herp shop owner to see what her opinions were on the knowledge I had acquired from the forums. She does a significant amount of breeding and her tips lined up with everything I read here.

I am using UTH with a thin layer of play sand. I then have tumbled marble tile ontop of the sand. Inside the dry hide I record temps between 93-95F. I'm going to invest in a thermostat in the near future to keep it steady. The cool side gets a 50W infrared heat lamp during the day to keep the temps around 75. When I go to bed I shut the lamp off and by morning the temp on the cool side is slightly above ambient, usually 68F or so.

I notice my gecko in the cool side/ humid hide during the day, he retreats into the warm hide until about 8pm. Then he comes out HUNGRY. He's a juvi so I feed him until he's happy then he goes about patrolling and pooping in his calcium dish, :main_laugh:. He is very active, has a great appetite and has been steadily gaining weight so I can only assume he's a happy guy. Again all my info came from this forum, the owner of the herp store, and based on my geckos behavior, I'm happy with the setup.

 

[acpart]

I keep my leos in open top glass tanks with UTH as heating element. It is set to 92F during summer where room temperature stays mid 80s throughout day and night; and set to 93 in winter. A few years ago, I don't temper with the room temperature, so during winter, the ambient temps will drop to the 60s (**note this is important because I have open top glass tanks). All of my leos will slow down / stop eating during the cold months, and will lose 10-15% body weight. Most will resume eating in Feburary, and will gain back their weight very quickly.

Now, I bought a radiant heater for the gecko room; the winter room temps stay 74-75F (vs mid 60s in the past). Most of my geckos are still eating, a couple have slowed down a bit, but not to the extent like before. So I do believe the ambient temperature plays a big role here.

I can definitely see that keeping the geckos warm keeps them more active and eating more. An interesting question is whether having a slow-down/cool-down period is beneficial to them, detrimental or doesn't really matter. In the wild they do this, but then the question is whether it's good for them because that's what they're adapted for, or it's a necessary evil given conditions in the wild and if we can change those conditions it will be better. I don't have the answer, but it's interesting to consider.

Aliza

 

[onemodog]

This is a great thread. I am a new leo owner and having issues with heat, ambient and belly, as I have read different opinions. I think my leo likes it a little cooler all around but how cool is what Im dealing with. This helps.
Thanks

 

[thegeckoguy23]

adam and ted same thing

 

[CallDr]

Your question really is what is "captive" and "wild" free ranging biology. In the wild they are born and raised in an environment where they thermoregulate based on their "core temps" ( which includes air temps ) along with the shortening and or longer daylight. This applies to most cold blooded reptiles.

Other factors would be the breeding season for both male and female.

So your question is really what do the captive and wild environment have in common.

That is why it's almost like a trick question. It's obvious that Breeders create a "clinical" or perfect environment. Just like growing a plant in a flower pot or green house.

First..... I don't know. This is because I don't know how much the Leopard Gecko has been domesticated.

For a extreme example. The barnyard "butterball" turkey is no where near it's "wild" brother. It can not survive in the wild at all. In fact, they will tilt their head up and drown in the rain. Even a wild turkey has to be born and raised by it's mother or they will not survive. You can't take eggs from the nest and hatch them. They will not survive. They have to be trapped in the wild and transfered..... to remain wild.

Which means I don't know how much "wildness" has been bred out of them or what selective breeding has done.

It's a great topic and I am all ears!