high calcium mineral water

[lytlesnake]

I found a mineral water that has a ton of calcium. It's called Contrex. I buy it at my local natural foods store. It's a french mineral water, not carbonated of course. You can see a ton of mineral deposits in the bowl when it dries up. I figured it wouldn't hurt. My reptiles seem to like it.

 

[catvettech]

I wouldn't use this for reptiles. You are also giving them electrolytes which may throw off their delicate metabolic balance.

 

[Gregg M]

Can you please explain how electrolytes will throw off their "delicate metabolic balance"???

 

[lytlesnake]

Actually I've given my geckos and king/milk snakes water with electrolytes on purpose as well, such as Smart Water and function Water. I haven't noticed it causing any imbalances. Thank you for the info though... good to know.

 

[catvettech]

Can you please explain how electrolytes will throw off their "delicate metabolic balance"???

Oh, gosh....here we go again, Madden. I will sum it up with one word and then you can look it up yourself - homeostasis!

 

[catvettech]

For others:

Sodium chloride, calcium, potassium, magnesium are contained in this drink, Contrex. The amount of each electrolyte contained therein (mg/L) is formulated for a human body, not a small (delicate) reptile body.

A proper balance is essential for homeostatis. When this is not maintained, heart, kidney, nerve problems can develop. When homeostasis is interrupted = dis-ease can occur.

 

[Baoh]

For you-

In an otherwise healthy nonaquatic organism, this will be internally regulated. Unless you are throwing off the solutes by a huge deal, such as with seawater in animals which are not marine or euryhaline, it's not going to present a realistic problem. The other extreme, which does not apply here, would be to have too little solute, as when water is overconsumed and hyponatremia occurs.

Homeostasis is not balance, actually, but it is balanced in its own right by the phenomenon of transistasis, which most textbooks conveniently leave out, favoring inclusion of the word entropy, which is slightly different. I suspect they do this to avoid confusing the students, as it these concepts are typically given primary exposure in mere introductory coursework. I have only seen it mentioned in some translated Japanese text.

Homeostasis is not balance. It is a tendency or striving to stay the same. Transistasis, a word with odd etymology, is its antonym, meaning a tendency or striving to change. Equilibrium is balance or the maintenance of it. Entropy is the universal trend toward disorder and the loss of energy to a greater sense of disorder.

If you achieved true chemical equilibrium, you'd be dead. Homeostasis is just a general concept, too. The reality is, like metabolism, which considers anabolism and catabolism to oppose each other to varying degrees, both homeostatic and transistatic interaction is needed.

If homeostasis was maintained absolutely, there would be no nerve transmission. No purkinje fiber firing. No muscular contraction. And so on.

There will not be enough added to these specialty waters to cause harm. The benefits, if any, will also be small, but if it makes the keeper feel more secure, that's fine.

Do you oppose giving the reptiles access to mineral powders, too? Those are electrolytes, you know, and in greater concentrations than these specialty waters provide.

I suggest you look at this in a more global manner and less microcosmic, or you may end up missing the grander scheme.

 

[catvettech]

For you-


A scientist I am not, but we are talking about a small reptile here. IMO having these additional electrolyes taken in could potentially cause a metabolic disturbance and possibly lead to kidney or heart problems since these little critters do have these organs. I have not done a study on this contrex, nor do I intend to, so I don't know how long the time before effect would be noted, if any.

We love our pets so much and we try to do what we think is best for them, yet this is not always the case. Sticking with what is tried and true is best!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Too high of a ratio of electrolytes and can cause gout in reptiles.

 

[Baoh]

Toxicity is determined by dose. Nothing advocated so far in this thread constitutes overdosage. I already addressed "otherwise healthy" and the standard provision of mineral supplements whose electrolyte content exceeds that of any specialty water product meant for consumption.

 

[Baoh]

Marcia, do you have any kind of reference I can look at showing electrolytic ratio changes being the root cause of gout? All of the cases of gout I am familiar with involve urate/purine issues. I could see gout causing nephropathy, which would then lead to electrolytic ratio imbalances, though, but that's an effect, rather than a cause. I'm open to published lit on the matter, though.

 

[catvettech]

Toxicity is determined by dose. Nothing advocated so far in this thread constitutes overdosage. I already addressed "otherwise healthy" and the standard provision of mineral supplements whose electrolyte content exceeds that of any specialty water product meant for consumption.

I don't agree and I stand by my words.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Marcia, do you have any kind of reference I can look at showing electrolytic ratio changes being the root cause of gout? All of the cases of gout I am familiar with involve urate/purine issues. I could see gout causing nephropathy, which would then lead to electrolytic ratio imbalances, though, but that's an effect, rather than a cause. I'm open to published lit on the matter, though.

Sorry, I am going by verbal information from my vet and the team up at UC Davis Veterinary Teaching Hospital's Exotics Department. I understand your perspective, but we must keep in mind that most electrolyte products are designed for mammals, and the ratios may not be ideal for a 50-gram, cold blooded reptile. Another good source of information regarding gout in reptiles can be found HERE (with credits).

Also, keep in mind that one of the ingredients in my 'slurry' recipe is Pedialite, an electrolyte product.

 

[Baoh]

That link reinforcess what I posted, as does every published electronic peer-reviewed reference that comes up via Medline search.

If you ever come across any additional literature that goes through similar tiers of review, I'd be interested in taking a look.

 

[Baoh]

I don't agree and I stand by my words.

The fact that toxicity of any substance is determined by dose requires no opinions for validation.

Even an intro tox course will drill this premise.

 

[porcelaindoll]

everyone here is very smart in giving such info. i will best keep my mouth shut instead of trying to argue anyone. just wanted to commend everyone for their passionate responses.

 

[catvettech]

The fact that toxicity of any substance is determined by dose requires no opinions for validation.

Even an intro tox course will drill this premise.

BUT....do we know the dose the gecko will take in? No.

 

[Baoh]

BUT....do we know the dose the gecko will take in? No.

Yes, we do, as we provide the amount.

The gecko doesn't open its cage, crack open the bottle, and gorge in gluttonous glory.

We determine how much of an aliquot is given.

 

[catvettech]

Oh, silly me.....I thought we just poured some in the bowl and let them drink at will.

 

[Baoh]

Oh, silly me.....I thought we just poured some in the bowl and let them drink at will.

The volume of liquid added to the bowl is under your control. Same for the volume of powders in supplement dishes.