i swear he is dwarf

[dino221]

-title- i really do swear hes a dwarf lmaoo he eats 1 hopper a week i used to feed him 2 times a week Wednesday and sunday but i started running low on hoppers so i had to switch to once a week but that is of recent (melvile expo is on sunday the 21st so more food) lol hes gonna be 2 later this year and hes only like 16-18 inches.... and i mean he eats hes refused before during the winter... i'll have him for 2 years in october he was a few months when i got him and.... i swear he isnt growing... it isnt worrying me cause he isnt losing weight and is gaining weight lil by lil but.. ik males are smaller then female but cant possibly be that small =/

 

[JordanAng420]

He's a ball python. Therefore, he's a problem child. LOL.

My ball python took 4 years to grow to full size...he's the pickest eater in the world...that's just the way they are...with balls, the only thing you can do is constantly offer food.

I've never heard of a "dwarf" ball python though. I would be VERY curious to know if one actually exists...

 

[T&KBrouse]

He's a ball python. Therefore, he's a problem child. LOL.

AMEN!
My boys took that long, too, and one still looks like a scrawny little mess.

 

[dino221]

good lol cause i see people who say their bp is like like a year and a half old and like almost 3ft im like .-. and mine doesnt even hit 2 feet xD

 

[Dog Shrink]

This makes me feel better too as my son's ball is a notoriously picky eater. Usually good for 2-3 large mice a week for about 3 weeks then we have a 3 week hunger strike, unless it's winter then it's more like a 6 week hunger strike but he never loses any mass and he is consistantly growing so... this has gone on for the 3 years we have owned him and he is between 3-4 feet now.

 

[robin]

get those guys on rats. thats when they start to put the weight on! (even rat pinks, hoppers and pups). rats are such a better and more nutritional food for them and they grow better

 

[Dog Shrink]

My guy won't touch rats all because one sratched his nose when he was about a year old, and he won't touch F/T either. With all the hunger strikes he has I'd get him a rat pup only to have it of breeding age before he ate it.

 

[T&KBrouse]

One of my boys got nipped by a brown mouse when he was young and to this day, he still won't touch a brown rat and he's 8 years old, so I completely understand that quirky little behavior issue.
The same boy also goes off food in November and won't eat again until March. Every year, like clockwork. And he doesn't loose more than a couple grams.

Definitely get a lesson in patience with ball pythons.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Yeah our first year with Loki was worry (or puke and panic as hubby puts it). He went from about Nov to feb before breaking his winter fast and didn't appear to lose any mass at all. After MANY calls to my herp pal and many reassurances "as long as he isn't losing mass he's FINE!" I finally got the hint

 

[M_surinamensis]

he's the pickest eater in the world

Ehhh... It may not make a lot of practical difference to the individual keeper of a specific animal, since eating is measured on a yes/no basis, but ball pythons aren't that picky. Neonate mountain kings that refuse to eat until after they have brumated are tricky. Candoia that are holding out for a specific species of pacific island gecko are picky. Balls are relatively easy. Not that the fact that something else is even pickier does a whole lot to help the person who's pet is refusing to eat.

with balls, the only thing you can do is constantly offer food.

How and what matter.

Tease feeding is half analysis and half art form.

The analytical part of it involves identifying the feeding triggers for the species that is refusing food, figuring out which stimulus provoke that response you want to see. Usually that means identifying traits that are found in their natural prey or their natural periods of predation- color, size, shape, smell, prey temperature, the way it moves, the intensity of the light, the ambient temperature, the humidity (do they always feed after it rains, or does low humidity mean that their prey is aestivating and put them in a similar state?).

The artistic part of it is taking all that information and actually applying it... having the skill to take a dead domesticated mouse on a pair of tongs and move it in the exact same way as a live african striped grass mouse, to identify and compensate for variables, to actually present the prey item in such a way that it fools the instincts of the snake. Nuances and subtleties, a careful hand and perfect timing.

Which is why I say that balls are easy in comparison, at least they start with an inclination to eat rodents. It's a much shorter series of variables and methods to run through than it is with a species that wants lizards, frogs or birds. I have never yet run into a ball python that was sufficiently healthy enough to eat that I could not provoke to voluntarily take and consume a prey item after about half an hour or so. Anything I had on hand as well, mice, rats, gerbils of all colors and ages. It is as simple as identifying the trigger and tripping it (or as complex as managing to get it right, it can be tough). Reading the responses and manipulating them towards the desired behavior. It is definitely easier to say and to understand than it is to necessarily do.

To you guys who mentioned the color of prey items and the species- thinking that a bite can put them off it... it won't. Not really and not by itself. There's a really rudimentary ability for snakes to recognize patterns but it takes constant and long term repetition coupled with an existing related response. So you can get one that responds to being placed into a feeding bin by waiting for food, but you can't get one to reject brown rats (or anything else) because they got bitten once. They don't learn or adapt that way, from that stimulus, that quickly.

What is a lot more likely is that your presentation of the prey item changed based on your perception of the difference in color or species and that you end up altering a lot more than you think you have when you tried that sort of prey item after the fact. You're concerned about the prey item and you will be providing a different kind of experience for the snake. There are a lot of things they end up sensing and responding to that we are oblivious to most of the time. For example, one of the most common mistakes I see people make when they are trying to tease feed is that they will loom over the snake and will exhale pretty much directly into the feeding tub. They don't even realize it- but they're seriously altering the scenario for the snake when they do things like that. Where shadows fall, the temperature of your hand, the smoothness of your motions- these can all matter and they can all change when you are expecting something different.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I can certainly understand and appreciate your indepth behavioral analysis on the matter but how do those points apply to a live fed ball python that were captive bred, that gets mice of varying color offered regularly in a feeder tank (his previous tank he out grew before the 90 gallon)? I'm certainly glad I don't have a son who desires the more difficult breeds of snakes you mentioned.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I can certainly understand and appreciate your indepth behavioral analysis on the matter but how do those points apply to a live fed ball python that were captive bred, that gets mice of varying color offered regularly in a feeder tank (his previous tank he out grew before the 90 gallon)? I'm certainly glad I don't have a son who desires the more difficult breeds of snakes you mentioned.

Most things that you learn about the natural history and biology of a species can be adapted, to some degree, to captive care.

In your case you have a ball python who eats live mice (provided I understood correctly) and who is of a size where it would be better for him nutritionally to transition over to rats and better for you (and him) to switch him over to prekilled prey.

So the trick is to identify the holes in his brain that are related to food, and then present the rat you want him to eat in such a way that it forms a peg that fits it.

I'd start with a smaller rat, appropriate to his girth of course but not too much larger than a fat adult mouse, probably an open eye pup that has become mobile, maybe slightly larger (you'd need to judge the size yourself of course). Either prekill it then and there or thaw a frozen one of the appropriate size. If you are using a frozen one, especially for this initial attempt, make sure that it is dry and position the heat source you are using to thaw it in such a way that the head is slightly warmer than the body.

Grip the rat pup just in front of the hips using a thin pair of tongs, place the snake in his feeding bin and present the rat pup by holding it even with the ground and by moving it slowly at a shallow angle around the outer edge of the snake's striking distance. Be careful not to breathe in the tub or wave your elbow around too much above him, or he'll be disinclined to eat.

Watch him as the prey is presented, follow his eyes as he focuses on the prey item, watch for an increased interest, faster and more common tongue flicking, angling his neck into position for a strike, following the rat with his labial pits, keeping it centered in front of him as it moves. Having gotten his interest, try a few small motions that are a bit jerkier, more like small hops, changes in speed and direction. That will generally provoke a strike and a wrap, followed by consumption of the prey item. Remember to keep the tongs fairly loose so that you can let go as he nails it, or so that he can pull it away afterwards.

If that doesn't work, you can also try scenting- rubbing the rat in bedding from a mouse cage. You may get some funny looks when you ask for it, but the pet shop where you have been buying live mice will probably be willing to give you some. Chicken broth is a classic scenting technique, ball pythons are often particularly responsive to gerbils, so gerbil bedding is usually a stringer incentive than mouse bedding, or I personally have always had exceptional luck with the chicken grease underneath the skin of a bucket of KFC.

Or bagging- ball pythons usually cruise around until they find a rodent burrow, head down inside it, eat all the occupants that they can find and then treat it like their own hide as they digest. They are used to eating in the dark (you can also try the above tong teasing with low lighting, sometimes it helps) and in enclosed spaces. Putting the snake in a paper bag with the prey item, folding the top closed and then putting the bag into the snake's enclosure overnight will often prompt them to eat the prey item. The close proximity, the dark and the time involved often work.

There is a knack to a lot of this, I can't promise that someone trying it for the first time will have immediate success, but if you're observant and you try one technique at a time, paying attention to the things that seemed more promising and developing your own approaches in those directions, it can definitely be done. The more you do it, or the more experience you have with the species in question, the easier it gets and the more sure of your own tease feeding skills you'll be.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Thank you for all that information. It certainly gives us some goals to strive towards in getting our fella a regular eater. We raise our own mice so maybe I should just set up a pair fo rats in a tank next to them or maybe gerbils but that is kinda going backwards in size isn't it.

 

[Kristi23]

Most things that you learn about the natural history and biology of a species can be adapted, to some degree, to captive care.

In your case you have a ball python who eats live mice (provided I understood correctly) and who is of a size where it would be better for him nutritionally to transition over to rats and better for you (and him) to switch him over to prekilled prey.

So the trick is to identify the holes in his brain that are related to food, and then present the rat you want him to eat in such a way that it forms a peg that fits it.

I'd start with a smaller rat, appropriate to his girth of course but not too much larger than a fat adult mouse, probably an open eye pup that has become mobile, maybe slightly larger (you'd need to judge the size yourself of course). Either prekill it then and there or thaw a frozen one of the appropriate size. If you are using a frozen one, especially for this initial attempt, make sure that it is dry and position the heat source you are using to thaw it in such a way that the head is slightly warmer than the body.

Grip the rat pup just in front of the hips using a thin pair of tongs, place the snake in his feeding bin and present the rat pup by holding it even with the ground and by moving it slowly at a shallow angle around the outer edge of the snake's striking distance. Be careful not to breathe in the tub or wave your elbow around too much above him, or he'll be disinclined to eat.

Watch him as the prey is presented, follow his eyes as he focuses on the prey item, watch for an increased interest, faster and more common tongue flicking, angling his neck into position for a strike, following the rat with his labial pits, keeping it centered in front of him as it moves. Having gotten his interest, try a few small motions that are a bit jerkier, more like small hops, changes in speed and direction. That will generally provoke a strike and a wrap, followed by consumption of the prey item. Remember to keep the tongs fairly loose so that you can let go as he nails it, or so that he can pull it away afterwards.

If that doesn't work, you can also try scenting- rubbing the rat in bedding from a mouse cage. You may get some funny looks when you ask for it, but the pet shop where you have been buying live mice will probably be willing to give you some. Chicken broth is a classic scenting technique, ball pythons are often particularly responsive to gerbils, so gerbil bedding is usually a stringer incentive than mouse bedding, or I personally have always had exceptional luck with the chicken grease underneath the skin of a bucket of KFC.

Or bagging- ball pythons usually cruise around until they find a rodent burrow, head down inside it, eat all the occupants that they can find and then treat it like their own hide as they digest. They are used to eating in the dark (you can also try the above tong teasing with low lighting, sometimes it helps) and in enclosed spaces. Putting the snake in a paper bag with the prey item, folding the top closed and then putting the bag into the snake's enclosure overnight will often prompt them to eat the prey item. The close proximity, the dark and the time involved often work.

There is a knack to a lot of this, I can't promise that someone trying it for the first time will have immediate success, but if you're observant and you try one technique at a time, paying attention to the things that seemed more promising and developing your own approaches in those directions, it can definitely be done. The more you do it, or the more experience you have with the species in question, the easier it gets and the more sure of your own tease feeding skills you'll be.

Thank you so much for this. I'm printing it for my daughter right now. She's been feeding her ball python large mice and we cannot get him switched over to rats at all. Hopefully she'll try your tips tonight.

 

[JordanAng420]

Thanks Seamus!! My ball has been off food for about 6 months now. And I was one of those that believed that a few bites from a rat would psychologically damage the snake into thinking it doesn't want to eat rats of that particular color.

So he's being a just a pain in the @$$ I guess. I will definately be trying some of the things you mentioned.

 

[M_surinamensis]

And I was one of those that believed that a few bites from a rat would psychologically damage the snake into thinking it doesn't want to eat rats of that particular color.

So he's being a just a pain in the @$$ I guess. I will definately be trying some of the things you mentioned.

A lot of people think that.

And for a lot of other animals, it applies. Mammals and birds definitely learn like that, and quickly. We learn like that. It is natural to base behavioral predictions for another species off some sense of empathy. It is a little anthropomorphic but it's a very normal assumption. One that most people never really have any reason to question, so it persists because there's nothing forcing them to reexamine it.

I am always kind of torn when it comes up. Being who I am and approaching reptiles the way I do, I have a strong urge to... correct (alright, sometimes just yell about) misimpressions people may have formed. I'm a stickler for accuracy. On the other hand though, most people form those kinds of impressions because they genuinely care about the animal they are keeping, the emotional bond may only go in one direction, but it is present. Having that level of dedication, that level of personal involvement has a lot of good aspects to it as well, it makes a person willing to go as far as it takes to care for their animal, no vet bill is too high, no elaborate and carefully maintained enclosure is too expensive pr too big, no detail or nuanced change in the animal's behavior or appearance will possibly go unnoticed.

I feel a happy middle ground can be struck, balancing those things we just naturally think of when we care about something with the cold, clinical analysis of the biology. Some people don't always see it that way though- so thank you to everyone in this thread for not flipping out when I suggested there might be a bit more to it than what was obvious.

Incidentally, if anyone ever wants any specific tease feeding tips or wants another opinion about a tactic they're thinking of trying, I am always willing to help. I do keep some of those species that have really narrowly defined ecological niches and which try to hold out for a specific species of rare lizard, so I am pretty good with manipulation of feeding triggers for various species and usually find rodent eaters to be pretty straightforward (barring any underlying health issues of course). I always like to hear about what someone is trying, I love discussions about alternate ways of triggering the behavior we want to provoke and I absolutely love success stories.

 

[Dog Shrink]

My previous ball centuries ago never was picky about eating. You put it in and she ate it. I always believed, snake meet rat... lunch. Let nature do what it does. The idea of feeding prekilled prey to me in some way makes me feel the captive animal is missing out on the only part of it's primitive instinct it has to use... hunting. We tried every way you mentioned to get Loki to eat prekilled prey, bagging them, tong teasing (with the safeguards you mentioned) and he never went for it. Maybe user error I guess May I ask why it seems you're against just letting nature do what it does with live feeding?

 

[M_surinamensis]

May I ask why it seems you're against just letting nature do what it does with live feeding?

In your specific case it was more a question of the prey items being offered, 2-3 adult mice indicate an animal that would be better served eating rats and is certainly large enough to do so.

But as a generalization, prekilled does have a number of advantages over live. I am not opposed to feeding live if it is absolutely necessary, but feel that a reasonable effort should be made to transition live feeders onto prekilled prey when possible in order to gain the benefits offered.

Prekilled of any kind has the advantage over live in that it completely removes the opportunity for injury if the prey becomes defensive. There are ways to minimize the risk of mouse and rat bites when feeding live, but they can not be eliminated entirely. One missed strike, one constriction that the prey wiggles sideways in response to, one quick nip and the snake can be injured. Not a tremendous problem if they are bitten on the body, although it does raise the possibility of infection- but potentially quite nasty if the bite lands on, for example, an eye.

I am certain you can find various rodent bite pictures online, the worst of the worst are usually when the prey is left in the enclosure and the encounter is not supervised, but even a single bite can be quite devastating depending on where it lands.

When using frozen/thawed prey, in addition to the convenience factor, you also get the benefit of destroying most intestinal parasites and bacteria. It is not quite 100% effective, although the flash freezing methods used by major suppliers are pretty close. However comparing the potential zoonotic organisms in a ft prey item against a live one shows an enormous difference. Rodents are a common intermediary host to many parasites and infections and the disease vectors can be somewhat unpredictable, even in a home-run breeding operation, unless true quarantine is in place. All it takes is a single beetle getting into a mouse rack and several months later you've got a snake full of intestinal parasites.

If an animal can be manipulated into taking prekilled prey, it allows the owner greater control over the nutritional intake and it minimizes or eliminates some risks associated with live feeding. Since live feeding offers no benefits over prekilled prey if the animal is inclined to eat whichever is offered, it makes the prekilled a superior choice.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Well we tried feeding him tonight. First tried live and he literally kissed the mouse and walked away. Had my boy whack the mouse, put it in his regular cage, not the feeding cage, and by the time we turned around to get the tongs Loki was already sniffing and investigating it. We stepped back and in about 15 seconds he decided to eat it. Whacked another and it's still sitting there guess it's time to learn tong play.