I was sold improperly sexed geckos...

[BEAR]

I was told I was getting a 1.3 colony of geckos, 8-12 months old.(very easy to sex at this age)
I told the person that I didn't have room for a male, but decided I would still buy the whole group(I then went and bought a new 10gal tank,lid, and UTH) because it was a reasonable price and I was trying to help him out.

I made a point to ask him about how sure he was about the sex of these geckos, a question that he didn't ever answer. He made himself sound knowledgeable about these animals, and spoke quite maturely...



Here are the geckos...

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=21767

Here is our conversation after the fact...

How are the Geckos? Thanks a ton man. I left you a posotive feedback.....would you mind to feedback me?
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They are beautiful dude...And I will definitely give you some feedback on there...I just am having an issue with the sexes of them. I may be looking at it wrong, but it looks to me like 3.1 not 1.3, I posted a thread asking for peoples opinion.

I'll let you know.
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Really? They where all sold to me as Female... SO sorry. I am not good at all with sexing.

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Ya dude, I am a nice guy, I am sure you have gathered that. But, I re-read our conversations and I asked you about it and you didn't respond the my question as to whether or not you were sure of the sexes. If you weren't sure about it I wish you would have said something about it, I would have easily been able to identify them, as well as tons of others on this website....

I realize you are a dependent, and I appreciate you and your family dropping them off on your way to tampa.

I cannot house 3 more males, It was inconvenient enough for just the additional one
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I am sorry I would have sworn I told you I was not sure of the sexes.. The guy told me they where all female... But I guessed he was wrong with one. I did say that I have only bred once though...
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So what are we going to do about this situation?
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Ummm... Idk? I am only 13 and do not know a ton about breeding/sexing leos... I only told you what the person I bought them from said...
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Ya i understand that Josh, but while you are a 13 year old, you are dealing with large amounts of other peoples money, and trust. You said in your descriptions that they "looked female/male", that implies that you visually sexed them yourself. does it not?

Please dont think I am being a mean guy, I am just concerned with these males.
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Yes I was being honest, to me only one of them look like my only adult(a male) And I never said I was sure of sexes.
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Picture one:
Was sold to me as a SHT het for Temper, but looks like a sunglow to me... Looks female, asking $65 + shipping.

Picture two:
Morph, is SHTCT het for temper amazing gecko will be a baldy and might loose the rest of those body spots as it matures. Looks female asking $65 + shipping.

Picture three:
Morph, Tang het for albino 66% het for raptor. 95% Sure that this ones a male. $65 + shipping. (slightly nicer tang than leo four)

Picture four:
Morph, Tang het for albino 66% het for raptor. 95% Sure that it is a female. Clutchmate of leo three her and leo three are the oldest. $65 + shipping.
(She is in shed right now thus the bad coloration)

I asked you directly if you were sure of their sexes, and you didn't entertain that question. You said they looked female, at the alleged age of 8-12 months it is very easy to sex these animals. If you would have done some research or a google search of "sexing leopard geckos" you would have been able to sex them instantly. You also said you were "95%" sure the last two were their sexes, you were right on one. 95% is a hiiiiigh percentage, while it is a cliche, it means you are more than sure.

How can you make such statements without properly researching?

How can you come on a forum that is all about leopard geckos, where everyone has great insight on these creatures and act like you are sure of such things?

How can you SELL something you don't apparently have a clue about?

These are questions that you need to ask yourself.

If you are going to do mature things such as run a business and sell animals, you need to do your research. If you are going to make mature claims, you need to also be mature about dealing with it professionally and maturely if you are wrong.

The decision on how you plan on handling this situation is yours, Josh. I think it is great that you are interested in these animals and have the entrepreneurial skills necessary to market your business. Hopefully you will learn something from this situation, and it wont happen again. But just know that I am not a happy customer.


Heres a link that shows how to properly sex a leopard gecko....
http://www.thegeckospot.com/leobreeding.html

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END

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Call me naive for trusting a 13 year old, but this kid seemed legit.

my question is....

What do I do?

I can either raise hell.

or I can deal with it, and try to sell the males.*they are very nice**.

the thing that bothers me now is that he is qualifying how wrong this is by his age...I know many very responsible 13-15 year olds. He isn't taking responsibility for this.

I dont know what to do..


Sorry for the long post, I am just pretty bummed.....:main_no:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I understand your disappointment, but anytime you enter in to a sales agreement with a minor, you really don't have much of a leg to stand on if something goes wrong.

If you are unhappy with the geckos, you can ASK for a refund and send the geckos back, but there is no guarantee that this will happen if the seller doesn't have written terms and/or a guarantee.

Good luck, and I hope this thread doesn't go in a direcction that breaks the TOS of GeckoForums.net... thanks!

 

[BEAR]

I understand your disappointment, but anytime you enter in to a sales agreement with a minor, you really don't have much of a leg to stand on if something goes wrong.

If you are unhappy with the geckos, you can ASK for a refund and send the geckos back, but there is no guarantee that this will happen if the seller doesn't have written terms and/or a guarantee.

Good luck, and I hope this thread doesn't go in a direcction that breaks the TOS of GeckoForums.net... thanks!

Minors cannot legally enter any type of contract, without their parents. So even a claim of gaurantee could legally be non-existent.

If this is the case, why does this forum allow Minors to sell geckos on their Classifieds?

No offense to the responsible minors who take responsibility for their mistakes....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

It isn't illegal for minors to sell/buy... just not inforcable if there is a problem with the 'contract' unless the parents are dragged into it. Most of the minors here on GeckoForums are very responsible and knowledgable... you just take a risk, that's all.

 

[BEAR]

It isn't illegal for minors to sell/buy... just not inforcable if there is a problem with the 'contract' unless the parents are dragged into it. .. you just take a risk, that's all.

I dont know if my wording wasn't clear, but i didnt claim that it wasnt legal for him to be selling it, but that since their is no legal way for me to deal with this, even if we did have a return agreement, why let the extra risk slip through the cracks?

No offense, but I dont appreciate you saying "Most of the minors here on GeckoForums are very responsible and knowledgable." that takes away from the fact that I commended those minors in my last post...for being responsible..Makes it seem like I am somehow attacking any young ones, because I am well aware that those minors exists. Just a point I felt needed to be pointed out.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

No offense, but I dont appreciate you saying "Most of the minors here on GeckoForums are very responsible and knowledgable." that takes away from the fact that I commended those minors in my last post...for being responsible..Makes it seem like I am somehow attacking any young ones, because I am well aware that those minors exists. Just a point I felt needed to be pointed out.

I'm very sorry you didn't appreciate me backing up your statement about "responsible minors taking responsibility for their mistakes..."

 

[BEAR]

I'm very sorry you didn't appreciate me backing up your statement about "responsible minors taking responsibility for their mistakes..."

I apologize if that was your intent. It seemed, however, that you were making a point to me. One that I had already conceded to.

Sorry for any misunderstanding...

 

[Mel&Keith]

I'd be very upset too! We've had a couple of bad dealings in the classifieds lately, both by young people with no history of dealings here. It's not fair to exclude all minors because we do have plenty of very knowledgeable and trustworthy members here who are under 18. I hope this member makes it right and comes to some sort of mutual agreement as to how to fix this problem. In this business reputation is very important!

I guess a point that can't be emphasized enough is check people's trader ratings then find out their policies and guarantees. If anything feels funny then don't buy.

I hold everyone we get geckos from to the same standard whether they are a huge scale breeder or someone who only breeds a few Leos.

 

[BEAR]

I'd be very upset too! We've had a couple of bad dealings in the classifieds lately, both by young people with no history of dealings here. It's not fair to exclude all minors because we do have plenty of very knowledgeable and trustworthy members here who are under 18. I hope this member makes it right and comes to some sort of mutual agreement as to how to fix this problem. In this business reputation is very important!

I guess a point that can't be emphasized enough is check people's trader ratings then find out their policies and guarantees. If anything feels funny then don't buy.

I hold everyone we get geckos from to the same standard whether they are a huge scale breeder or someone who only breeds a few Leos.

I certainly agree with you.

worst case scenario I have to sell them myself...:main_thumbsdown:

Yes, funny that I found out about "user ratings" when he rated me, as a buyer...I saw he had no "rating"...

In order to stop stuff like this from happening...Basic things that should be general knowledge on this forum, at least for those selling.. Might I suggest some type of test of some sort that one must pass before their are given privileges to use the classifieds? It doesn't have to be impassable...but I think we can all agree that with a small amount of research or even browsing the forum, someone selling can be a whole lot more knowledgeable on simple subjects, like sexing. It would reduce the amount of instances such as this from occurring. May sound stupid, but I think it has some merit.

Regardless of this forums policies, I will continue to be polite and in all future instances go a lot further in questioning those I buy from...

I hope a lot of people can learn a lesson from my mistake....

 

[karls-geckos]

i say done is done. learn from this and dont get too upset about it. just post them for sale or for trade, this too shall pass lol

 

[BEAR]

i say done is done. learn from this and dont get too upset about it. just post them for sale or for trade, this too shall pass lol

Ya but I feel that if it ends that easily for him, he will get the wrong message.

I plan on trading them or selling them, good idea karls-geckos!

 

[Ccrashca069]

I would give him a negitive feedback and on visible comments state was told 1.3 and was sent 3.1

 

[Mel&Keith]

That's exactly what I hope as well, that everyone can learn a lesson from this. I think as far as testing for the classifieds, I feel like the responsibility has to fall on the buyer to know what they are buying. If you're not sure about an ad I don't feel like it's unreasonable to ask for additional photos or information. It would be difficult for the forum to take responsibility for who can or cannot post ads and why.

Fauna's BOI is the place to post about great or terrible dealings with people and is a great place to check out sellers before you buy.

 

[Halley]

I would give him a negitive feedback and on visible comments state was told 1.3 and was sent 3.1

That is what I would do as well. This is what the trader rating system is for. You can leave a short message with the things you where displeased with, and then I believe it allows you to write a longer one if you need to. I would leave something about the improper sexing, how he didn’t resolve the situation, etc. That way nobody else has this happen to him.

 

[Mel&Keith]

You can also link to the classified ad when you leave a trader rating.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I hold everyone we get geckos from to the same standard whether they are a huge scale breeder or someone who only breeds a few Leos.

AMEN!!!

I feel like the responsibility has to fall on the buyer to know what they are buying. If you're not sure about an ad I don't feel like it's unreasonable to ask for additional photos or information. It would be difficult for the forum to take responsibility for who can or cannot post ads and why.

This is very true. We, as moderators, or the administration for Geckoforums.net, just don't have the resources to impose stringent rules for who can post classifieds.

I remember a few years ago, I was vending at a show down in Anaheim (6 hour drive!) and a very well-known vendor had an adult bold stripe for sale marked as a female. I took it for granted that he could sex a gecko, and bought 'her'. It wasn't until I got the gecko home that I saw it was plainly a male! Arrrrgghhh!!! I was pretty PO'd at the breeder, but it would have been simple enough for me to take a look at the gecko at the show to verify it's gender. I simply ASSumed that it was correctly sexed. I was more pissed of at myself than anything!

On the flip side, I have sold 'late bloomers' as female only to have them turn out to be male. Granted, I did my best to make amends to my customers for my mistake by offering to take the gecko back for a refund, or offer a correctly sexed replacement at a huge discount. I guess that's the difference when dealing with a breeder with a guarantee vs. someone that doesn't.

We are sometimes at the mercy of those we do business with, for sure...

 

[Mel&Keith]

Oh, umm....forgot to raise hand in shame as a seller who has sold a mis sexed Leo. (It was obviously sexable and I was in a hurry, totally my fault.) We all make mistakes, it's how we handle them that defines us!

 

[fallen_angel]

Oh, umm....forgot to raise hand in shame as a seller who has sold a mis sexed Leo. (It was obviously sexable and I was in a hurry, totally my fault.) We all make mistakes, it's how we handle them that defines us!

Very well said.

I thought the test for people to be able to post classifides was a good idea, but can understand how the moderators cannot really do something like that. I think everyone's pretty much said it all, I am sorry that this happened.

 

[lepgeckosrock]

I think he should either buy them back from you or atleast give you a partial refund but in his defense I have a jungle leo that was sexed by a owner of a reptile shop that has been in business for atleast 15 yrs as female I also had some pics of its underside in a glass bowl and sent it to a breeder and he thought female and there still is no showing of pores but you can see little bulges and I seen it cleaning itself and noticed it has a hemipenis but without seeing that everyone including me thought it to be female and I even bought a male for it only to find out it's male.It still has me puzzled as to why no visable pores.

 

[fallen_angel]

Very interesting story Roger, thanks for sharing :main_thumbsup: