krcd.com stealing pics!

[robin]

Cosidering the photo was never actually stolen since the photo most likely isn't registed witht the FCA I don't feel I owe anyone an appology as it is technically pubilc domain since it is on the internet with out being copy protected. All the photos on my website have been either taken by me or have been supplied to me with permission of the owners.

lmao ok please go on

Oh and for the record I do produce some of the animals I sell. I either broker or breed all of the animals I sell. I broker for some of the best breeders and importers in the country. You would be suprised to see how many breeder's I broker for that choose to remain private so they don't have to deal with all the crap the retail side of this business presents.

ohh my sides are hurting here

Also to answer your question, I would be pleased to see my photos being used to represent someone's ad or website if I didn't take the proper steps to legally copy protect them. That just goes to show that obviously my animals would be the quality that others want to sell. There is obviously two ways to look at this glass, and you my dear are looking at it half empty.

hahahaha

you really need to educate yourself better on using others photos to sell your imported animals, because honestly you have no clue. i do however since i do artistic photography as a hobby. i know the laws very well. your lack of correct informations amuses me

 

[www.KCRD.com]

Call it what you may, but as stated before the photo was supplied to me unknowingly that it was from someone else's site. The thread will be reposted tomorrow with an actual photo of the animals available. I already said I don't condone using others photos with out their permission, do you want me to draw you a picture, or will I need to get that copy protected too?

I honestly don't need to prove anything to any of the close minded members of this forum that choose to post information incorrectly about a subject they know little of.

As far as your bad mouthing the BOI, I find it funny that you carry an opinion of such a well rounded, highly viewed and self sustaining board. It almost sounds like this forum has a case of "little man" syndrome. Either way, this thread will do more good tham harm as does most posts such as these.

As far as your lack of knowledge in regards to copyright laws, it was very apparent in your last posts. Good reply by the way, your ability to be vague is quite amusing.

 

[CoolGeckos]

Hmm... Do you want me to pull up some informations on CopyRight laws? You broken it period! You don't have it to be proccessed by to get into database... Government WON'T want to save every single picture and owner informations... Full of BS. Doesn't matter if have watermark or name on it... Believe it or not they can cut it off in photoshop if they are really good with it. So it really doesn't applies into watermark or having it processed. It is the permission from owner. LOL! BTW i just googled on FCA in fact I don't find anything do with government just farming or sports. That is enough of it.

 

[RaiQuee]

Actually, being an artist myself, your copyrighted laws a bit askew. It may be different for artwork, however a photo can easily be considered artwork.

Personally from your attitude towards the situation, I can tell I won't be buyin any animals from you.

 

[Grinning Geckos]

No RaiQuee, he's blowing steam out his rear end with his "knowledge" of the copyright laws.

Fact - All works (photographic or painting) are AUTOMATICALLY copyrighted. No date, name, OR copyright notice on the work is needed.

Fact - The real issue in court is proving you're the creator of the photo and you had it first. Paying $30 a picture for officially copyrighting an image is the BEST way to go about this, but it's FAR from the only way. A "poor mans" copyright will hold up just was well. Take said photograph and mail it to yourself (be sure to make the contents on the outside)...the postmark with the date from the post office and a SEALED envelope WILL hold up in court.

Fact - BWAHAHAHAHAH You think someone defending their copyright will get prosecuted for "illeagal" representation of a legal document? BWAHAHAHAHAH As said above, it's automatic and applies to EVERYONE!!! I don't have the time at the momement to look up the exact amount of time, but anything done or taken in the last 20 - 30 years is covered by this statement (I think it was 1975...I need to brush up!). It's fairly safe to say that most images on the internet are NOT public domain.

Lord, I could go on, but I have to go to work. You need to fire your copyright "lawyer". Safe to say, I won't be buying from you. I haven't looked, but has anyone posted this in the BOI? Belive it or not, they take stealing photos seriously as well.

God, I'm really holding back here! :furious3:

 

[robin]

thank you preston, desire' and shanti for backing me up here. it seems as though he doesnt know his laws very well. comsidering shanti and desire are artist's i would be willing to bet they can site exact laws when they get home and see this or i can look up the exact laws and cite them here for you. however i really do not have the time. you can go on about knowing your laws but well you don't and if are unable to appologize to the parties involved and remove the photos since they are protected images ..... it all falls on you. personally i do not buy brokered (i only buy directly from the breeder) or wild caufgt CRAP (this doesnt include all wild caught just crap wild caught [actually i will only deal with rare wc, if at all]). i wonder how many of the other photos you have on your site are also stolen? we already know of two.

 

[Milwaukee Reptiles]

Shanti is absolutely right here. The difference between a REGISTERED copyrighted phot and NON-REGISTERED copyrighted photo (even if automatically copyrighted) is the amount of money you can sue for.

If it's not registered, you can only sue for damages related to the incidient and any money they made using the images. If it is registered, you could (theoretically) sue them for every damn penny they have. As someone who's getting into photography I just looked up the laws a few months ago to make sure I was covered. Every few months I burn a dvd with my images (originals nontheless) and mail them to myself. It's be hard to claim it's your photo when I have the original Canon raw photo with my name embedded in it...

 

[Milwaukee Reptiles]

Oh yeah, by the way:
Actual Laws: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/

Some fun quotes (http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html):

Copyright is secured automatically when the work is created, and a work is "created" when it is fixed in a copy or phonorecord for the first time.

A public performance or display of a work does not of itself constitute publication.

The use of a copyright notice is no longer required under U. S. law, although it is often beneficial. Because prior law did contain such a requirement, however, the use of notice is still relevant to the copyright status of older works.

A work that is created [...] on or after January 1, 1978, is automatically protected from the moment of its creation and is ordinarily given a term enduring for the author's life plus an additional 70 years after the author's death

In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:

* Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.

* Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.

* If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.

* If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.

* Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, go to the U.S. Customs and Border Protection website at www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/import. Click on "Intellectual Property Rights."

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright.

 

[Jedi Master Bruce]

Either way, my opinion is that you are intentionally misrepresenting those excellent captive-born geckos in the picture as your imported stuff. You seem to me to be saying that you do this often. Nobody who has alot of experience in this business would go near you if they knew you were doing this. Is that what you are saying?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Hmmmm... you know KCRD, I honestly think that the inadvertent (accidental or not) use of someone else's photos could be easily remedied with a simple, "Wow, we're sorry... we didn't realize those photos were obtained without permission. We'll take them down right away".

Unfortunately, the negative attitude and defensive posture you have assumed when responding to this situation and your lack of respect for the owners of those photos speaks poorly of KCRD.

BTW, I feel the BOI is a very useful tool for the reptile community, and has helped me on several occasions over the years.

 

[www.KCRD.com]

The photos have been removed from Kingsnake. They were taken down long before this thread went to the level that it's at now. I am still trying to figure out why you all are still in an uproar over this?

Someone asked if I do this all the time? I don't "steal" photos but I do get them forwarded to me by my importers and breeders on occasion.

I find it very funny in this business when people talk bad about the sale of wild caught animals. Do you not realize where your precious little animals in your own collections came from originally?

As far as an appology goes, if it will make the sniffling stop then I will appologize to you as a forum:

I am sorry for the use of an apparently copyprotected photo. As mentioned before this was unknowingly the cae and infact was not done as a method of misrepresentation in anyway. If I offended the owner of the photo used, then I am sorry. I do want to point out that KCRD does take every point to be as honest and upfront on the history of all the animals we sell. I think that the ones from this forum that HAVE done business with me in the past can attest to that.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well done!!! :main_thumbsup: See... that didn't hurt a bit!

 

[robin]

The photos have been removed from Kingsnake. They were taken down long before this thread went to the level that it's at now. I am still trying to figure out why you all are still in an uproar over this?

have they been taken down on your site as well?

I find it very funny in this business when people talk bad about the sale of wild caught animals. Do you not realize where your precious little animals in your own collections came from originally?

why buy imported animals (most of us know how they are imported, the mortality rate and the problems that do commonly occur with them) if you can get the exact same type of animal CBB? the only need for wild caughts is rare specimens and to outcross your lines. otherwise you are getting wild caught animals not established and in allot of cases end up dieing, because allot of people do not know how to care for an unestablished wild caught animal for example.. rehydration, vetrinary care (internals, externals, fecals), stressors and the list goes on. so, you can buy healthy, established animals from a well known breeder instead of wild caughts, simple as that. yeah at first the costs are a bit in some cases different however in the long run the cbb end up costing you much less. :main_thumbsup:

As far as an appology goes, if it will make the sniffling stop then I will appologize to you as a forum:

I am sorry for the use of an apparently copyprotected photo. As mentioned before this was unknowingly the cae and infact was not done as a method of misrepresentation in anyway. If I offended the owner of the photo used, then I am sorry. I do want to point out that KCRD does take every point to be as honest and upfront on the history of all the animals we sell. I think that the ones from this forum that HAVE done business with me in the past can attest to that.

personally you don't owe me or this forum an excuse (except for your lack of knowlesge) but rather a personal email to the parties photos you stole to sell your animals, because honestly i could care less if you appologize to me and i am sure allot of other people feel this way too

 

[PaulSage]

Unfortunately, the negative attitude and defensive posture you have assumed when responding to this situation and your lack of respect for the owners of those photos speaks poorly of KCRD.

I agree with Marcia. In fact, I had noticed an ad you had for a pair of keyserlingii and was seriously thinking about sending you an email about them because I've been trying to find some. Last I checked the ad was taken down, so I'm assuming you sold them and it doesn't matter now anyway, but for what it's worth, the manner in which a person/business replies to a comment about them does indeed say a lot about their attitude.

The photo thing really doesn't bother me now that it has been corrected, and I would still consider making a purchase, but now a new element has been thrown into a buyer's decision -- Would I feel comfortable admitting to other breeders that I purchased from someone whom has handled this the way you have?

I guess I would have to think about it.

 

[Jedi Master Bruce]

I support the importation of animals. What I do not like is if a dealer tells or hints that something is captive born, when in fact the dealer knows it was an import. I have been ripped-off by dealers who lied right to my face in person about this and feel no shame at all when they are caught. Many dealers feel that buyer-beware applies to their business. That is why many people love the animals but despise the dealers.

 

[www.KCRD.com]

I agree that it sucks that there are so many people out there that would just as soon lie to make a buck then tell the truth. When I had the Microlepis and the Keyserlingi available there were many people that were estatic to find out they were fresh imports since it's been a little over four years since the last shipment from Pakistan has come into the US. These didn't even come direct, my importer had to bring them through Eurpoe to get them in and even then the Eurpean exporters were trying to pass them off as CB. Apparently he thought that the US guys were idiots and would think that some joe was breeding and raising up these geckos to sell at "wholesale" prices in the US.

I think that it's up to the individual as to wether or not you want to make known where you get your animals. I have a breeder for example that is so secretive about his stock and so paranoid that he will get broken into that he has told me on several occassions to keep his name private. It's not like he's breeding anything super rare, Surinam Emerald Tree Boas, Colored Amazon Tree Boas and a few others, he just wants to keep his breeding on the DL, so I oblige his requests and we go on about our business.

 

[RaiQuee]

I really don't mind Imports, as long as it's stated in the ad. Which i believe you do.

I am glad the pictures are down, and you apologized. Just, snap some of your own pics and save them for the next shipment. Then people can't get their panties in a bunch. Ya know?

 

[rrhill]

Thank you for removing those pics from the ads. One thing you should keep in mind, many of us have experienced having our photos "stolen" and used on other websites or in ads. A few years ago a kid "borrowed" a pic from me (he said a friend sent him an email with several photos) and put it on his website. I was very pissed that someone would use my work (the cage in the pic was designed, built and photographed by me) on his website. The cage was also featured on my own website. After a strongly worded email, he removed the pic. Shanti & Brian are both correct about the copyright laws, the photos are the possesion (and are automatically copyright protected) of the person who took the picture. I would let your importer know that stealing photos is not a good way to conduct business. And yes, we feel the same way about pics of our CB animals being used to sell WC stuff.
BTW, this is a NEW website...no "litttle man disorder" here. Almost all of us have jumped ship from Fauna, many of us were long term (several years) members of fauna. We do not care to make the comparison.

 

[scottmckillips]

I have an ethics question on this matter. Is it alright to use a photo of the animal you purchase from someones site for showing it off on a forums page?
I do not agree with what they did in using someone elses photo for their own add. I believe you should show what (you) are selling. But if I purchase an animal that had a photo on their site, is it alright to save that photo onto my computer and show it on the net to other people? I would always state that I just purchase this from them and this is what it looks like.

Scott

 

[robin]

ok if you buy an animal and there is a photo just link people to it. do not save it and upload it to a forum page. this is still considered copyright infringment. if you do not want to link to the exact photo or it was sent in mail them 1) wait til you get it and photograph it yourself or 2) contact the seller and ask if it is ok but make sure to post in the thread (if they say yes) "photo courtesy of ....."