Little help...son's gecko is sick

[twmattox]

Okay, I am not quite sure where to begin. My son has had a leopard gecko for a few months. He is a very responsible young man (14-years old) and I have stayed out of this business. However, he recently came to me with an issue...and I know absolutely nothing about geckos. His gecko has lost a lot of tail weight. Until about 2-weeks ago, the tail was larger than his head. However, now it is very shriveled. We have cleaned his cage and have noted that the gecko is defecating. His appetite, however, is not what it use to be. Before sickness, the gecko would eat 3-4 large crickets (that were fed teh Fluker orange cube stuff) every other day or so. However, now, we are trying to force fee him crickets, meal worms, anything. He is maybe getting one cricket a day. We are also doing our best to make sure he is drinking water (using a dropper). We recently bought some Fluker Repta-aid powder that is supposed to help with weak geckos as a temporary food source. He will eat around 1ml of this stuff but no more (every day). On a side note, we have seen his right rear knee is very swollen, hard, and won't move. He wobbles around (moving by his hip). Also, it looks like the tips of some toes are doing a weird discoloring thing too.

Not sure what info you will need: Cage is a 10-gallon aquarium. Substrate is the carpet. There is an under tank heater that is on 1/2 of the tank. We have a water dish, and a hollow rock (I think it is called a hide). During the day, my son uses an incandescent heat "day glo" light (100 watt) in a dome fixture and a fluorescent light bulb that is supposed to provide some UV band light (I think they called it a Reptisun). At night, he uses a 75 watt night glo incandescent light in a dome fixtrue. Temperatures range from around 98* at day and 78* at night.

Please help. Give us some guidance. I know we should start by making his home less stressful. What should we get to put in there to help with that? Any thoughts on how to get him to eat? Any thoughts to what the build-up on his knee is? Should we be bathing him? I really am very new to all of this...

 

[acpart]

Here are some basic questions:
Where did your son get the gecko from?
How big is the gecko (and was it a baby, juvenile or adult when he got it?)
Is the gecko getting any calcium, vitamin D3 and vitamins

The next thing to do is to go to the top of the page and click on "articles/caresheets". Read a few of the caresheets, paying careful attention to "supplementation" if your son's gecko is not getting the supplements I asked about above. This may give you some insight into what's happening.

If everything you're doing is according to the caresheets, the next step will be to get a referral to a reptile vet near you and have the gecko seen.

Aliza

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

It appears as if you are doing most everything properly. The hip/knee issue does bring up some concern. My best suggestion for this situation would be to take a fresh fecal sample to the closest Reptile Vet to test for parasites. Also there may need to have blood work done to see if there are any infections.

Unfortunatly with everything that you posted there isn't really a home remedy that I can think of that would assist in this situation. I would make a suggestion that you will not be needing an external source of light supplimentation. Since Leopard Geckos are nocturnal animals the Cal w/ D3 will give the gecko ample supply of Vit D3.

 

[Dog Shrink]

Also the UV lights aren't doing him any favors. he is a nocturnal reptile and unlike day dwellers UV provides no real benefit to him and could be causing him stress. Unlike day reptiles that actually need uv for digestion (and other things), leos require heat to do that not light. I know that doesn't explain the knee but it could help. Also if you're using those kinds of wattage on those bulbs PLUS a heat mat your temps might be too high. Is your probe directly on the floor over the mat? Does he have another probe reading ambient (air temp)? I know for my 20 long with a 6x11 7 watt cobra heat mat alone stays at 93-95 then add a 15 watt regular house bulb and it takes it to 96-ish. If we have a cold night I put on his 75 watt night light and it brings the temps way high 98-100 or higher if I don't regulate it with a thermostat or rheostat. Does the leo have more than 1 hide in his tank? He should have on on the hot side (where the UTH is) and one on the cold side so he can choose where he needs to be dependant on his body temperature. He should also have a moist hide but being a 10 gallon tank there might not be room for 3. Also are you keeping regular plain calcium (with out D3) in his tank available to him 24/7? You can put some in a gatoraide lid and he will lick it as he feels he needs it.

I'm still new to leos myself. Just got my first a couple weeks ago but from what I've read (and been told by my breeder) proper heat is major important to health and well being of your leo. Hopefully some others will chime in with their 2 cents, but it may be time for a trip to a reptile savvy vet. Good luck.

 

[twmattox]

Okay...thanks. From talking with my son, he tried "dusting" the crickets, but the gecko would not eat them. So, he has not done any supplements since. He thought that the Orange Cricket cubes were supplying all the nutrients through "gut loading"???

He bought the gecko about 8-9 months ago from Pets Mart. It was a "sub-adult" and had grown considerably since he has had him (until recently).

As far as temperature, he has 2 thermometers in the tank. 1 that sits right above the hide (there is only the one hide) and 1 that is about half way up the tank on the wall. On days when our A/C is turned off, we have noticed the temperature approach 105*, but normally it is much closer to 95* (we keep our house cool especially in winter). And, nighttime temps (using a 75watt bulb) drop down to around 75* (which my son thought was too cold for daytime temps). The heat mat he has is a smaller one...not sure if that makes a difference???

So, his gecko does not need UV light? The people at the pet store (I know not experts) said not having UV light would kill him b/c he wouldn't digest things properly.

How do we find a reptile vet? We live pretty far out in the country and our local vet does not see reptiles... What should we expect to spend for a vet visit?

So, right now, it is looking like his cage needs at least one more hide (preferably two). He needs a dish filled with calcium (any brand specific? what exactly am I going to ask for at Pets Mart when we go in there?)

More importantly, how do we get him to eat again??? Right now, he spits out all the food we are able to get in his mouth...

 

[acpart]

There is a chance he is suffering from MBD (metabolic bone disease--remember, I'm not a vet, so I'm not giving you a definite diagnosis). If this is the case, it would explain his leg problem. Also, his jaw would be soft and it would be hard to eat the crickets. He needs calcium, vitamins and vitamin D3. The usual method is to put a small dish of calcium without D3 in the tank (so they don't overdose on D3) and to dust the crickets with alternating calcium with D3 and vitamins. The usually recommended brands for the latter two are Repcal calcium with D3 and repcal herptivite. Many people prefer Repashy calcium plus which you can get online (check out geckoranch.com) and is an all-in-one supplement.

If the gecko won't eat dusted crickets (and now won't eat at all), try dipping your finger in water, then dipping it in the supplement and rubbing some on his jaw. He'll lick it off and ingest it.

See if you can get a digital thermometer with a probe to put on the floor of the tank. The general wisdom is low 90's on the floor (which is going to be different from even an inch up), though some people go high 90's and don't find a problem. If it's too hot, you'll need a thermostat or a dimmer so the heat mat puts out less heat. I don't worry that much about the air temp. I live in New England and in winter during the day the air temp is probably in the 60's, but I feel if the gecko is cold it can go into its warm hide where the air temp will be considerably higher since the hide traps the heat coming from below. Everyone is healthy with this system.

Ask your regular vet if s/he can refer to a reptile vet. If you post your location on the forums, there may be someone in your general area with a recommendation. There are also online listings.

Good luck,

Aliza

 

[Dog Shrink]

For other reptiles not having UV could be detrimental to their well being but with leopard geckos this is NOT the case. The stores, like you said, are not experts, and use a general protocol across the board I find. They don't realize that using UV on a herp that doesn't require nor is use to having it can be detrimental. Honestly I would go back to that store's manager and tell him what has happened and what you have found out about the care of Leos so that they don't misinform future buyers (I bet the salesperson also told you it was ok to house your leo on sand). I know they likely do it to obviously sell more product but in the long run don't have a clue as to the negative inpact it can have on nocturnal herps such as leos. I mean if you really think about it, what need would a nocturnal animal have for UV suppliment? Leos don't bask in day light, if they bask at all. I think it is irresponsible of any petshop to not completely educate their employees on the care of EVERY herp/animal they sell, and if it were me I'd make them take a few hours of classes and sign a statement tesing their knowledge before ever letting them touch an animal they sell. The place you mentioned is notorious for cruelty to animals... just google it, or (god forbid) check PETA HSUS or ASPCA stories/complaints. There was just a huge exposee on TV about it a couple months ago. Showing dead and dying hamsters and other small mammals/birds suffering in the "back room" with out medical care... it's really horrid.

Also I'm not sure but I do believe they make those herp vitamins in a liquid form maybe it would be easier to give them in liquid form. If you have a dosing syringe, eye dropper, or even a regular needle with the needle part removed (there's still a little plastic end on it) you could slip it in the corner of his mouth and give him meds that way.

 

[twmattox]

So, this may all be my fault. When his bulb burnt out, I bought a new one and may have bought one too large. I believe the original bulb was a 75watt basking light and I am pretty sure the replacement I bought was a 100watt basking light. I feel just horrible.

Okay, after a day of helping my son monitor the tank, I think it is too warm at the floor. The only thermometers we had were a couple of outdoor thermometers and a small gold one (not sure how accurate it is). Small gold one on warm side of the tank was reading 105* on the floor. We were not sure how accurate it was so we placed an outdoor thermometer right next to it. That was reading 100*. An outdoor thermometer placed halfway up the tank red 85*. Night time temps on the warm side of the tank on the floor was around 85*.

The under tank heater is always on, but may be a smaller unit. During the day, we have to use a basking light in order to get the temps above 85*... We have stopped using the fluorescent UV light (though the guy at the pet store again told me that UVb was needed for the gecko to properly process calcium). At night we use a cool night 75watt bulb and it keeps night temps down around 85*.

So,we have made a trip to the store to purchase items. Came home with another hide, a smaller 75watt basking light, more crickets, and Reptivite (made by Zoo Meds). He is now eating if we pull off the cricket head and squish the guts out...he has eaten about 3 cricket guts tonight. We have also gotten him to eat some of the powder vitamins by dusting our finger and getting him to lick it...also placed a dish in the tank filled with the vitamin powder. My son has also started a warm bath process to hopefully calm him down and relax him a bit. The gecko seems to enjoy it...

On a side note, we have noticed his toes doing something weird. Looks almost like they are shedding...I am sure this is not a good sign.

What are we looking at as far as care goes? I don't want to force feed him too quickly, but do want to make sure he starts to gain a bit of weight. I know this will be a long road to get him back to health...but what should we shoot for? 2-3 crushed crickets every day and after a few days increase to 3-4? What about how much water to force feed? How frequent for the vitamin? And how much vitamin is too much?

Like I said, I don't know a whole lot...but am learning. I just don't want to overdo anything (I know that can be detrimental); but I really don't know how much is too much and how much is not enough.

Oh, and thank all of you very very much!

Unfortunately, the closest vet that will see a gecko is over an hour away...and very very expensive. To make matters worse, I am out of town now till early next week. So, it looks like we are at your mercy on a bit of guidance...

 

[acpart]

I'm assuming that all the temperatures you've reported are floor temperatures. It should really be possible with a correct size heat mat that's working correctly to get temperatures in the 90's without needing any kind of light at all. Here are some things you can do:
--check your heat mat with a watt meter to make sure it's really working correctly
--put a sheet of aluminum foil over the heat mat, so the mat is sandwiched between the bottom of the tank and the foil. This directs more heat upwards and should raise your floor temperatures
--get a larger heat mat if none of the above works

Despite what the pet store guy says, you really don't need any lights at all. The D3 will do the calcium metabolizing thing. It seems as though the lights are confusing things, so I recommend you just get rid of them entirely (you can put the thermometer in the warm hide to see what temperature it is there).

Vitamins and D3: alternate each feeding which one you're providing via your finger

crickets: give your gecko as many as it will eat. If it eats 3 cricket guts, offer another and stop when it refuses.

Aliza

 

[gothra]

If your heating mat is working but not raising the floor temp of the enclosure, there is a possibility that heat is lost to the surface below. You can put some insulating materials beneath the heat mat to divert the heat to go up. I agree that overhead light is not needed; but its ok if you want to include one; just change to a smaller wattage bulb - 40/60W. The light should be on the same side as the heat mat, measure the warmest spot on the floor, if its in the 90s, that's good. The non-heated section of the tank should be at room temp, anywhere from 70-80 is good.

Regarding supplements, there's a lot of discussion on how much is too much on the "supplementation" sub-forum. Some say its almost impossible to overdose, others say different. So you really have to do some reading and decide for yourself.

If there seems to be left over skin on the toes (or other parts of body), you'll need to clean that off for the gecko. Otherwise, when the retained shed dried up, they'll restrict bloodflow and will cause the toes to die and fall off.

 

[Dog Shrink]

I was thinking the warm baths are releasing previously stuck shed that they may not have noticed.

 

[twmattox]

Great...thanks.

As far as lights and heat go. We have a 10-gallon aquarium and the zoo med 10-20 gallon UTH. However, we keep our house cold (summer is around 70 and winter is around 64). So, I am sure this has an effect on how warm the tank stays... I will look into insulating or try the foil thing when I get back home. If I understand you guys correctly, it should be possible for us to get the tank to 97* with just the UTH? From the care sheets I have read, it is important for the night time temps to drop down to the 80* range...how do you do that??? We were trying to regulate via the basking light.

Thanks

 

[acpart]

I really don't worry about night time drops or ambient temperature at all. Just get the floor temp in the 90's and don't worry. My ambient temps range from 89 in the summer to low 60's in the winter. Everybody (all 50 of them) is fine.

Aliza

 

[twmattox]

Hey its Connor the kid who's trying to take care of my Leo. Exactly howcan I get the skin off of his toes without hurting him?

 

[Dog Shrink]

soak his feet in warm water couple times a day for a half hour-ish, or maybe if that doesn't work you acn rub a lil mineral oil on them.

 

[gothra]

Connor, you can wet his toes until the stuck shed loosen, then gently use your finger or a cotton bud stick (q-tip) to rub it off.

 

[twmattox]

Well, mixed results right now. I am back home and checking on things. Double checked, and we are using the 8watt heat mat (for the 10-20 tank). With new thermometers (and one on the floor on the hot side, one on the wall about 1/2 inch up on the cool side, and one on the wall about 1/2 inch up on the warm side). Running just the cool blue (75-watt) night light, the floor temps are in the mid 90's. Wall temps are in the mid 80's (warm side) and mid 70's (cool side). I guess with that basking light we were way too warm!

He has been eating 3-4 cricket guts a day, getting some calcium (without D3), and we have started adding vitamin dust to the orange cubes for the crickets. He seems to be getting along a good bit better. However, his tail is still shriveled up...how long should we expect this??

Also, a couple of his toes seem to have had parts of them fall off. We thought it was loose skin...but it may have been tips of toes that have fallen off. The growth on his right rear knee is still present and seems to cause him some difficulty moving around. And, we have noticed a growth (kind of hard) on his left rear hip. I thought these growths were a sign he was getting too much calcium...is that not the case???

Thanks everyone!!!

 

[Dog Shrink]

Any update here? How's the Leo doing? His tail will likely be one of the last things you see put weight back on. The tail is for storage, and if his body is using allt eh food, obviouslyhe isn't storing any yet so don't worry. Give it about a month or so it should get chubby. Has he eaten live food yet or is it still just teh cricket guts? Does he show any ambition to hunt? Maybe try mealies or a super worm. As far as the growths go, could you post a pic? I'm not sure it is too much calcium but the only 2 things that pop to mind for me (and I"m no pro so please don't take this as gospel) is MBD or gout. Here is an older thread that shows some pictures of a leo with gout and the deposits that can come of it just for reference but of course this would need to be diagnosed by an experenced herp vet. http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=53486

 

[twmattox]

Well, time for an update. He seems to be steady. Ate two whole crickets last night. From scanning all the resources on here, it is pretty evident he has gout. Right now, we are stuck trying to understand what this means long term. Have read there is treatment, but have also read that it is not overly effective. Regardless, the nearest vet that will see him is over an hour away, overly expensive, and not terribly positive about the end result. Before I take time off work for this, I just want to make sure that there is something we can do.

Currently, gout in the right rear knee, 3 hands, left rear hip, and right front shoulder. Only the right rear knee seems to be bad enough to alter movement...thoughts???

 

[KelliH]

Is it possible for you to post a few photos of the gecko here?