mack raptor x raptor offspring

[nevinm]

im going to chime in right now and tell you all... it is a fact that you CAN produce none eclipse, or none snake eyed animals (i.e. completely normal eyed animals) from full eclipesed animals (and that includes the albino form). it IS possable there is nothing to argue over. the eclipse eye gene is also not JUST simple recessive, simply put it is NOT fully understood. you guys can agrue all you want but theres no point. this is the reason it is so hard to prove out a super RAPTOR.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

it IS possable there is nothing to argue over. the eclipse eye gene is also not JUST simple recessive, simply put it is NOT fully understood. you guys can agrue all you want but theres no point. this is the reason it is so hard to prove out a super RAPTOR.

I didn't realize anybody was arguing. I thought it was a great discussion. :main_yes: And thanks for pointing out that info regarding the Eclipse trait.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

i realize that two eclipse animals can produce, and will produce, non-eclipse animals, but that doesnt mean it doesnt carry the trait. Has anyone test bred any of these animals and not produced eclipse animals from it? All of the non-eclipse animals produced by 2 eclipse parents i have seen (3 of them) still have the characteristic white nose, suggesting to me that it still inherited the trait.

If someone crosses one of these geckos with a visual eclipse and doesnt get eclipse offspring i will be surprised; and excited to think it could be an incomplete recessive trait.

 

[nevinm]

sorry maurice, i wasnt part of the whole thing and it all seemed very agressive to me.. ya know how that can be. but yeah even i have produced none eclipesed animals from full raptors. its only happened twice but it does happen on occation.

 

[nevinm]

i realize that two eclipse animals can produce, and will produce, non-eclipse animals, but that doesnt mean it doesnt carry the trait. Has anyone test bred any of these animals and not produced eclipse animals from it? All of the non-eclipse animals produced by 2 eclipse parents i have seen (3 of them) still have the characteristic white nose, suggesting to me that it still inherited the trait.

If someone crosses one of these geckos with a visual eclipse and doesnt get eclipse offspring i will be surprised; and excited to think it could be an incomplete recessive trait.

no one ever said they dont carry the gene. we only said that it IS possable to get normal eyes from 2 raptors. thats all any one claimed

 

[Wandering Paddle]

So would you call such an animal a 0% eclipse normal eye raptor? It seemed that many people were saying the trait didnt "carry over".

personally, i think having a homozygous eclipse gecko with normal eyes would be awesome. I believe some radars have been produced with normal eyes...

 

[nevinm]

you are reading into what we are saying wayyyy too much. we are talking about the EYE gene simply not being visible. maybe it is there and we just cant tell. but simply put there are cases where an animal with a completely normal eye (at very least normal looking) has been produced from 2 fulley black or red eyed animals.

 

[nevinm]

oh... and to add to that. a raptor with normals eyes is an APTOR....

 

[Wandering Paddle]

oh... and to add to that. a raptor with normals eyes is an APTOR....

I really feel like calling a homozygous eclipse animal an aptor isnt doing that animal justice, regardless of what the eyes look like.

 

[nevinm]

ok i get what you are trying to say. but the simple fact is.. the point of a homozygous RAPTOR is to have red eyes..... with out the red eyes. a raptor is an APTOR. its not about doing it justice.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

ok i get what you are trying to say. but the simple fact is.. the point of a homozygous RAPTOR is to have red eyes..... with out the red eyes. a raptor is an APTOR. its not about doing it justice.

of course, a raptor is also supposed to be patternless stripe, and we know how that goes. I totally get what you are saying though.

this conversation made me love genetics more than i already did...

 

[thestack510]

with out the red eyes. a raptor is an APTOR. its not about doing it justice.

+1 :main_thumbsup:

 

[nevinm]

of course, a raptor is also supposed to be patternless stripe, and we know how that goes. I totally get what you are saying though.

this conversation made me love genetics more than i already did...

i dont get what you are saying there... if a raptor is a patternless stripe than its not a raptor. if you are talking about ppl labeling them then thats correct, if thye have red eyes ppl just call them raptors no matter the pattern. i do this some what. i will labe an animal as banded raptor, striped raptor, reverse stripe raptor... and so on

 

[Wandering Paddle]

thats what im saying. The term 'raptor' doesn't always work. A raptor is defined as a patternless gecko with red eyes, but that isnt often what people label as raptor. ive been a fan of saying eclipse tremper since i first got into leopard geckos, but that doesnt always work either... but now we are getting into something completely different.

i appreciate your opinion.... your giant bell posts are always a treat.

 

[nevinm]

got ya. and thank you

 

[lillith]

I'm guessing that none of these traits are a single locus or allele or even a single gene. Tangerine is a multiple-allele trait, as I understand it.

Why is it so hard to accept that eclipse might be, too?

 

[nevinm]

not quite janece.... a stripe is one gene, a reverse stripe is one gene, tangerene is line breed. and so is carrot tail. the way you get an eclips is a patternless stipe. this is how it happens..... the stripe and reverstripe cancel each other out making a patternless stripe. when that happened and they were bread back together the eclipses were hatched. but then some how when they were breed together all the other genes (IE. stripe, banded, reverse stripe). so any time you see a patternless stripe or APTOR it is going to be het for the eclipse gene. thats just hwo it works, no one knows why. that was proven out by a major breeder (not tremper). so to put it bluntly as i said before... no one really knows 100% why the eclipse gene works the way it does

 

[lillith]

Isn't line bred = multiple alleles in action? you just keep stacking more and more tangerine expression?

I thought that eclipse is a trait that was concurrently carried by patternless tremper geckos (to begin with) but had not been line bred enough to be expressed until a certain point...as in, eclipse genes surfaced from the same base "pool" of geckos, but aren't necessarily the same genes involved??

I also thought that stripe genes (reverse and normal) are completely separate from anything having to do with albinism or eclipse.

I know RAPTORs are a combination of a slew of different traits, I'm just trying to figure out where each component arises from.

I'm not trying to be difficult...just trying to see where my conclusions were drawn wrong...

 

[nevinm]

right i understand what your saying lillith but i wouldnt exactly call line breed a multi alleles. cause when you line breed for tangerine it is a matter of stacking the same gene ontop of eachother to make it brighter and brighter.

with that said forget about the raptor. all a raptor is, is an albino eclipse. so lets just focus on the eclipse. R tremper took the fallowing genes and put them together. the tangerine, the stripe, the carrot tail, and the reverse stripe. taking a carrot tail tangerine reverse stripe and a carrot tail tangerine stripe and having them cancel eachother out as i said. ending with the patternless stripe. those were then breed back together and out came the eclipse. no one knows why or how it happened. the tremper albino was then breed in creating the RAPTOR (tremper albino form of the eclipse). a little while after it was on the market, someone created their OWN patternless stripes, those were breed back together and out popped a black eyed animal.

this showed by crossing a stripe and reverse stripe you will creat hets for eclips. this is where and so far the only way to make your own eclips. so anytime you see patternless stripe het for eclipse... its kind of an oximoron, because all patternless stripes are het for eclipse. if they are also het for albino than they would also be het RAPTOR.

no one knows how or why, but combining the stripe and reverse stripe you will create eclipse.



ps.. also to add in that when you breed a raptor to raptor you can get any of the genetics needed to make up the RAPTOR.. (IE stripe, banded, reverse stripe, tangerine,). this is what i was saying in a previous post.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

sorry maurice, i wasnt part of the whole thing and it all seemed very agressive to me.. ya know how that can be. but yeah even i have produced none eclipesed animals from full raptors. its only happened twice but it does happen on occation.

No worries. This is actually the first I've ever heard that the Eclipse trait doesn't work 100% recessive. So having been presented that info for the first time, it threw me off a little. I've never heard of anyone hatching out a normal albino eyed leo from an eclipse eyed pair. Looks like there are a few of us finding this out for the first time.